Ballyseedy



T

The_Big_Fellow

Big Fellow

The murder squad as it was called was in existence long before Cosgrave came to power, so it was FF creation. And interesting thing is that most of the members of police sent to Kerry were all Kerrymen like, Courney, Gerry Carroll ( who describes himself as an author now) Courtney still alive and gave evidence ionto an appeal before Court of criminal appeal a few days ago. He said heavy gang was a creation of Irish Times,and that it never existed.
The heavy gang most certainly existed, the Cosgrave govt. at the time seemed to have allowed the Guards free rein to act outside the law. It was a follow on from the founding decade of the state, when justice was decided by those who had power rather than the law. No doubt FF have been just as compliant in its development but both parties are responsible. I remember reading a journalist who said that FG's problem was that they put the state first before the nation, its people, while FF had a disdain for the state and focused on its people. Neither had a focus on equitable justice.

The heavy gang was a creation of Comm. Ned Garvey, a traitor and British agent, that served under the Cosgrave administration and had free reign. Maybe it was at the behest of Mi5 that he set them up, but it was not stopped by the Govt. of the time.

Whatever the route cause of all this is, one thing is very certain both FF and FG have displayed a willingness to break the law when they see fit.
 

Tomas Mor

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The heavy gang most certainly existed, the Cosgrave govt. at the time seemed to have allowed the Guards free rein to act outside the law. It was a follow on from the founding decade of the state, when justice was decided by those who had power rather than the law. No doubt FF have been just as compliant in its development but both parties are responsible. I remember reading a journalist who said that FG's problem was that they put the state first before the nation, its people, while FF had a disdain for the state and focused on its people. Neither had a focus on equitable justice.

The heavy gang was a creation of Comm. Ned Garvey, a traitor and British agent, that served under the Cosgrave administration and had free reign. Maybe it was at the behest of Mi5 that he set them up, but it was not stopped by the Govt. of the time.

And maybe they help save the state when the IRA tried to bring it down,killed Senator Billy Fox, Gardai, British Ambassador,robbed banks, ruined economy, bombed courthouses, The IRA of the time were not the folksey people we see now in Stormont, like McGuinness and Adams. And Kerrymen like Courtney (on oath a few days ago) and Carroll say that heavy gang was a creation of old lady of Westmoreland St. You seem to know different.Who created corruption in Donegal ?
 
T

The_Big_Fellow

Big Fellow

The murder squad as it was called was in existence long before Cosgrave came to power, so it was FF creation. And interesting thing is that most of the members of police sent to Kerry were all Kerrymen like, Courney, Gerry Carroll ( who describes himself as an author now) Courtney still alive and gave evidence ionto an appeal before Court of criminal appeal a few days ago. He said heavy gang was a creation of Irish Times,and that it never existed.
I forgot to ask if Courtney had any views on the murder of a FG member Séamus Ludlow by loyalists in the 70's. He was the man who bought the RUC file down from Belfast. Will he explain why the Guards knowing who killed Ludlow, kept repeating the line that the IRA were behind it. Is it because the loyalists involved were also serving British soldiers, and that they didn't want that to come out. Why despite the evidence were charges not pressed. Why has he as one of the leading investigators in to the murder refused to speak with the Ludlow family when they met him.

What kind of man refuses to speak to the family of a murder investigation he was involved in?.

Their is a rotten core in the Gardaí culture that goes back to the start, a flawed force with a poor performance record. It really needs to be overhauled and made accountable and effective and impartial.
 

Tomas Mor

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I forgot to ask if Courtney had any views on the murder of a FG member Séamus Ludlow by loyalists in the 70's. He was the man who bought the RUC file down from Belfast. Will he explain why the Guards knowing who killed Ludlow, kept repeating the line that the IRA were behind it. Is it because the loyalists involved were also serving British soldiers, and that they didn't want that to come out. Why despite the evidence were charges not pressed. Why has he as one of the leading investigators in to the murder refused to speak with the Ludlow family when they met him.

What kind of man refuses to speak to the family of a murder investigation he was involved in?.
Their is a rotten core in the Gardaí culture that goes back to the start, a flawed force with a poor performance record. It really needs to be overhauled and made accountable and effective and impartial.
I am sure Courtney can defend his reputation -like any good Kerry full back, if he has been grossly libelled here,as he seems to be alive and well and combatted in court only last week. As for the Garda I think that overall,in general, it has been one of the success stories of the new state,and saved our democracy on several occasions.
 
T

The_Big_Fellow

And maybe they help save the state when the IRA tried to bring it down,killed Senator Billy Fox, Gardai, British Ambassador,robbed banks, ruined economy, bombed courthouses, The IRA of the time were not the folksey people we see now in Stormont, like McGuinness and Adams. And Kerrymen like Courtney (on oath a few days ago) and Carroll say that heavy gang was a creation of old lady of Westmoreland St. You seem to know different.Who created corruption in Donegal ?
How funny that you seem to have no trouble that Garvey was a Traitor, do you consider the cover up in to the Dublin/Monaghan bombing/ Séamus Ludlows murder etc etc to be justified acts.

Garvey was doing it for the pay, as were many others in their pay. It sure as hell wasn't any concern for the Irish people that motivated them, why else would the files from the Dublin Monaghan bombings gone missing, why else were loyalist paramilitaries allowed kill with impunity this side of the border.

Away from all that I have no idea why you keep saying that Courtney is a Kerry man.

Donegal was part of the same malaise in the gardaí, over riding secrecy, a willingness to bend the rules to get the job done, senior officers covering up for low ranking buddies. A disregard for the rule of Law and a belief that power comes from the blue of the cloth rather than the court.

All that is irrelevant to the likes of you, cause you will justify it all with Billy Fox etc.

The likes of you and your old fashioned thinking are part of the reason that this state is the way it is.
 
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T

The_Big_Fellow

I am sure Courtney can defend his reputation -like any good Kerry full back, if he has been grossly libelled here,as he seems to be alive and well and combatted in court only last week. As for the Garda I think that overall,in general, it has been one of the success stories of the new state,and saved our democracy on several occasions.
Once again what is it with the Kerry stuff, what does it matter his county

The Barron report is the source of the info

"Retired Dt Supt. John Courtney, who received a file naming four suspects, from the RUC in February 1979, stated that he was made aware of the four strong suspects in 1979 but was not given permission from Garda headquarters to pursue the investigation further. This was the first public admission that the murder investigation had been blocked by the Garda authorities in Dublin.

The same four suspects were questioned in 1998 and two of the men gave similar accounts of their involvement. Again, this was a first public admission.

No Garda was recorded as being given responsibility for contacting the Ludlow family for the first inquest in August 1976.

Seamus Ludlow was not murdered by the IRA nor was he a member of the IRA. The suspicion of IRA involvement had been excluded from the murder investigation within three months of the murder, though the Ludlow family were never informed. Indeed, family members were still being told this lie nearly twenty years later!

No trace of the victim's clothing or of two of the fatal bullets can be found."

How is it libel to state his own words on the record of what happened. How is it not normal to want to ask him what the hell he made of it!

Courtney refuses to talk to the family: http://www3.serve.com/pfc/cases/ludlow/ludlow99.htm
 
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T

The_Big_Fellow

I am sure Courtney can defend his reputation -like any good Kerry full back, if he has been grossly libelled here,as he seems to be alive and well and combatted in court only last week. As for the Garda I think that overall,in general, it has been one of the success stories of the new state,and saved our democracy on several occasions.
If the Gardaí are so great why was Courtney not allowed pursue the investigation any further by HQ.
 

Tomas Mor

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Garvey was doing it for the pay, as were many others in their pay. It sure as hell wasn't any concern for the Irish people that motivated them, why else would the files from the Dublin Monaghan bombings gone missing, why else were loyalist paramilitaries allowed kill with impunity this side of the border.

I have no idea why you keep saying that Courtney is a Kerry man.

All that is irrelevant to the likes of you, cause you will justify it all with Billy Fox etc.

The likes of you and your old fashioned thinking are part of the reason that this state is the way it is.
The guards were equally negligent in allowing hordes of IRA cross the border with impunity, kill Protestants and bolt back here then. And like Dublin , Monaghan, no one ever caught. There were even some guards who co operated with IRA, some were before courts. As someone else referred to Kerry babies and so called heavy gang, it is relevant Courtney is a Kerryman "sent down from Dublin" to Kerry.

And I think the issue of non extradition was explained that if it was allowed one way, it would have to apply other way,ie, that IRA murder gangs would have to be extradicted North, and our Courts then would not allow it.
 
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T

The_Big_Fellow

The guards were equally negligent in allowing hordes of IRA cross the border with impunity, kill Protestants and bolt back here then. And like Dublin , Monaghan, no one ever caught. There were even some guards who co operated with IRA, some were before courts. As someone else referred to Kerry babies and so called heavy gang, it is relevant Courtney is a Kerryman "sent down from Dublin" to Kerry.
Negligent implies that the Guards allowed it to happen because of their widely acknowledged unprofessional approach. In both cases that would be fine, that is what we are used to, unfortunately. However there are too many cases where the guards were not acting in the interests of this state or its people and it was deliberately done.

It is the rotten heart in the force's culture, and it seriously needs to be overhauled and made in to an effective and Impartial police force that respects the rule of law.
 

Tomas Mor

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Negligent implies that the Guards allowed it to happen because of their widely acknowledged unprofessional approach. In both cases that would be fine, that is what we are used to, unfortunately. However there are too many cases where the guards were not acting in the interests of this state or its people and it was deliberately done.

It is the rotten heart in the force's culture, and it seriously needs to be overhauled and made in to an effective and Impartial police force that respects the rule of law.
Great to see you admit that garda were negligent , not only in relation to Dublin/ Monaghan, but also in relation to many many murders perpetrated by the IRA and which were never solved, and are scarcely even remembered. I suppose in fairness forensics, telephone records ( like which traced Omagh mass murderers) were then not around. Thanks again.
 
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The Field Marshal

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Does trawling up Irish civil war horrors achieve anything?

It was a terrible time for everybody concerned and the time to bury the ghost has long passed.

87 years has now passed since these terrible events.

The Irish state currently faces terrible economic problems.


Can the civil war protagonists FG & FF not forgive and forget and forge a new deperately needed political consensus on a way forward for Ireland.


The only winners as matters stand with FG & FF at daggers drawn is Labour and the other fringe parties
 
T

The_Big_Fellow

Great to see you admit that garda were negligent , not only in relation to Dublin/ Monaghan, but also in relation to many many murders perpetrated by the IRA and which were never solved, and are scarcely even remembered. I suppose in fairness forensics, telephone records ( like which traced Omagh mass murderers) were then not around. Thanks again.
No I never said that. The force willfully turned a blind eye to the Dublin/Monaghan bombing because it seems that it was ordered to do. Your idol Courtney said that he was stopped investigating the murder of Séamus Ludlow.

I agree that the Guards and their investigations can be taken with a pinch of salt, it is internationally recognized as an unprofessional force, we all know that.

My issue is that apart from their usual botches that some cases were botched intentionally and that these cases were ones where loyalist paramilitaries had killed people in this state, and despite their being evidence no charges were dropped. In effect loyalist their was organized Gardaí collusion with the killing of people in this state. Some no doubt did it because they felt the UVF were fighting Irish republicans, some did it for the money, but it was organized.
 

Tomas Mor

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No I never said that. The force willfully turned a blind eye to the Dublin/Monaghan bombing because it seems that it was ordered to do. Your idol Courtney said that he was stopped investigating the murder of Séamus Ludlow.

I agree that the Guards and their investigations can be taken with a pinch of salt, it is internationally recognized as an unprofessional force, we all know that.

My issue is that apart from their usual botches that some cases were botched intentionally and that these cases were ones where loyalist paramilitaries had killed people in this state, and despite their being evidence no charges were dropped. In effect loyalist their was organized Gardaí collusion with the killing of people in this state. Some no doubt did it because they felt the UVF were fighting Irish republicans, some did it for the money, but it was organized.
So you dont agree the garda were negligent in NOT catching IRA murder squads. I am afraid the evidence is against you
 
T

The_Big_Fellow

So you dont agree the garda were negligent in NOT catching IRA murder squads. I am afraid the evidence is against you
They would have been negligent (taken as: failure to exercise care expected from a person of responsibility) in that regard to their duty, but that was the vast majority of times down to their inability as a Police force.

In certain cases they acted very decisively, unfortunately it was often through breaking the law, disregarding due procedure, and stitching up suspects, all par for the course in the annals of Irish policing. The cases I have been talking about are ones where the force as a whole was prevented from prosecuting Loyalist paramilitaries who had killed people here, prevented following up for political reasons and it seems for corrupt reasons as well. In the 70's the state has a blind spot when it came to loyalist paramilitaries killing people south of the border. That is to the eternal shame of the Gardaí and of the Cosgrave Govt.
 

Tomas Mor

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They would have been negligent (taken as: failure to exercise care expected from a person of responsibility) in that regard to their duty, but that was the vast majority of times down to their inability as a Police force.

In certain cases they acted very decisively, unfortunately it was often through breaking the law, disregarding due procedure, and stitching up suspects, all par for the course in the annals of Irish policing. The cases I have been talking about are ones where the force as a whole was prevented from prosecuting Loyalist paramilitaries who had killed people here, prevented following up for political reasons and it seems for corrupt reasons as well. In the 70's the state has a blind spot when it came to loyalist paramilitaries killing people south of the border. That is to the eternal shame of the Gardaí and of the Cosgrave Govt.
And Jack Lynch forgot all the Litteljohns, lapse of memory ?
 

Tomas Mor

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That is a classic FF line of defence "dem boys are de same as us anyway".

Jesus wept but is their any hope for this country.
But you dont see it that way.
 
T

The_Big_Fellow

But you dont see it that way.
To be honest I see very little difference between the likes of you and FF'ers, ye both need each other to survive and ye both have very limited concepts of what is right and wrong.
 


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