Ballyseedy

turdsl

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Connor Cruise O Brien considered they heavy gang were necessary and did a good job,Garret did not agree and at one stage after the Irish Times articles was said to be considering resigning his position.
 


T

The_Big_Fellow

Connor Cruise O Brien considered they heavy gang were necessary and did a good job,Garret did not agree and at one stage after the Irish Times articles was said to be considering resigning his position.
I never knew that about Garret, good to hear that he was against them. Cruizer was a lunatic I think that most people realize that now.
 

Didimus

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An interesting quote from Garrets biography, with an accommpanying comment:
On the Heavy Gang issue, Garret’s autobiography is a masterpiece of dissembling. I don’t know if anyone on this site watches Little Britain but Vicky Pollard comes to mind. “I was distressed by these reports which appeared to me to warrant investigation. Several of my colleagues shared my anxiety. Having reflected on the matter during our holiday in France in Augusy, I decided to raise it in government and, if necessary, to force the issue into a conclusion by threatening resignation. In the event I was deflected by my purpose by a consensus in the government that we would be sending very conflicting signals to public opinion if at the same time as enacting legislation that, among other things, extended to seven days the maximum period for which suspects could be held under the Offences against the State (Amendment) Act, we instituted an inquiry into the interrogation of suspects being held by the Gardai.”
(A child of six can see that this makes no sense as surely the very best time to be examining the behvaiour of Gardai towards suspects was when enacting legislation which puts suspects in the custody of the force for an extra five days without a charge having to be preferred.)
He concludes, “I allowed myself to be persuaded to leave this sensitive issue for several months, and my reconciliation is that I raised it again in November and/or January to no effect; I have no record of this however.”
Meanwhile, what of Garret FitzGerald’s thoughts on civil liberties? What indeed? The Cedar Lounge Revolution
 

JohnD66

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This is an article I did on Wellington (Griffith) Barracks during the Civil War.

Wellington Barracks, Dublin, 1922 – A Microcosm of the Irish Civil War | The Irish Story

Few heroes here to be honest, on either side. The Republicans threw grenades that killed eight-year-old girls. The National Army shot teenagers putting up republican posters.

The other striking thing is how young they were on both sides. Most of the combatants were not even 20.
 

Passionateheart

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This state was born in appaling bloodshed. If you heard such an atrocity and at least 1 similar one plus those executions was happening in The African World War in the DRC at the moment, you would be shocked!
 

pinemartin

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Connor Cruise O Brien considered they heavy gang were necessary and did a good job,Garret did not agree and at one stage after the Irish Times articles was said to be considering resigning his position.
Garret when it came to a decision between his career and his morality always chose his career. I also believe that like many FGers he saw the republicans as a bigger problem than the sectarian Northern state. He I think was one of the most duplicitous of Irish politicians. FGs pro Britishness is one of the reasons they will always have a problem gaining political power in Ireland.
 

Cael

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Garret when it came to a decision between his career and his morality always chose his career. I also believe that like many FGers he saw the republicans as a bigger problem than the sectarian Northern state. He I think was one of the most duplicitous of Irish politicians. FGs pro Britishness is one of the reasons they will always have a problem gaining political power in Ireland.
He also considered the families of the victims of the Dublin and Monaghan bombings to be an enemy and not the bombers themselves. While the investigation into the bombings were quickly dropped, FG had special branch surveillance put on the families who were organising commemorations for their loved ones.
 

Boy M5

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Couple of book reviews I did on the civil war - one The Summer Campaign in Kerry (though doesn't cover as far as Ballyseedy).

Book Reviews – Mercier’s Military History of the Irish Civil War Series | The Irish Story
Its a good book one I'm reading at the moment the other is one that is excellent is Tom Doyle's other book "The Civil War in Kerry". I was intrigued why Kerry has so many markers from Civil War engagements, yet nothing from the WOI. Tom Doyle's view is that as Kerry was closed down during WOI by the Crown forces. So Kerry's WOI was the Civil War. Remember Kerry was active in preparation for the Rising - so the strong link through to the declaration of the Republic.
 

wretchedwilbur

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Does trawling up Irish civil war horrors achieve anything?

It was a terrible time for everybody concerned and the time to bury the ghost has long passed.

87 years has now passed since these terrible events.

The Irish state currently faces terrible economic problems.


Can the civil war protagonists FG & FF not forgive and forget and forge a new deperately needed political consensus on a way forward for Ireland.


The only winners as matters stand with FG & FF at daggers drawn is Labour and the other fringe parties
Intellectually , TFM ,your point is rock solid.

But emotionally or spiritually ( in the real sense ) , it doesn't stack up. For me , and I don't understand why , I am consumed by certain tragic human events in history. The Civil War is one such event.

For me , though I've been reading on the subject for 40 years , I cannot get spiritual closure on the Holocaust. What was perpetrated on European Jewry was utterly horrific. But it's easy , in a macabre way , to understand the victims. What I am grappling with is the sympathy I feel for the SS who had to be be totally dehumanised to oversee this most grisly of atrocities. Or were they dehumanised ? The more I study this subject , the more I gravitate to the possibility that , as with the Dublin Guards at Ballyseedy , the SS and all the Aryan Poles , Latvians , Hungarians etc who delighted in spontaneous massacres of Jews shortly after Nazi occupation - the human instinct is a dark and terrible thing.

For this reason I argue that a study of human affairs like these is much more likely to be spiritually instructive than reading the banal tripe that constitutes the scriptures of organised religions. The human condition is far more complex and interesting than the holy books allow.
 

turdsl

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You will not get many in Fine Gael today willing to talk about the Freestaters and the war in Kerry during March 1923.
 

former wesleyan

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You will not get many in Fine Gael today willing to talk about the Freestaters and the war in Kerry during March 1923.
Whereas the republicans and FF felt it ok to have a memorial to the event sculpted by the former Nazi Yann Goulet who had been sentenced to death in France but who was made a member of Aosdána . His other offences against good taste can be found at the Custom House and in Crossmaglen.
 

politico24

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Neither side has much to celebrate. Atrocities were committed on both sides.

Ballyseedy was a dreadful, barbaric atrocity. It was committed by angry, bloodthirsty soldiers in hostile territory as a reprisal for a dreadful, barbaric atrocity committed against their men the previous day.

The Civil War is a stain on Irish history because of the carry on of both sides and it is really improper for anybody to seize any kind of moral high ground with regard to it as a lot of Republicans try to. turdsl says many in FG don't talk about it, maybe it's time people in FF and SF stopped talking about it to.

As for the documentary, it is very good. One point though. How can he implicate Mulcahy the way he does? Seems like a hatchet job on Mulcahy to me. Daly acted within much less than 24 hours of the Knocknagashel atrocity. The documentary states there was no telegrams to or from Dublin and describes this as 'deafening'. He then uses Mulcahy's consent to a different execution to link him to Ballyseedy and quickly moves on. I thought that was really poor. How can he link Mulcahy with it in such a blatant way? The written order was not about Ballyseedy but it is implied that it is.

The court was a sham, i grant you, but I guess these things happen in Civil War and to the best of my knowledge these elements were routed from the army in peacetime in 1924 and didn't that contribute to the army mutiny?O'Higgins and the cabinet moved against the Dublin Guards etc?
 

Kerrygold

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And the state records have yet to be corrected about the atrocity. Officially the men were killed while moving an "irregular" road block.

Ballyseedy is the most famous event, but there were another 2 events the same week that were just as callous, if not even more. At the Bahaghs Workhouse near Caherciveen, the day before Ballyseedy, 5 prisoners were first shot in the legs so they couldn't escape, then tied to a barracade with a land mine and blown to bits.

Another four were blown to bits at Countess Bridge in Killarney the same day as Ballyseedy. The Free Staters invloved at Ballyseedy and Countess Bridge should have learned from the actions of those in Caherciveen because 2 prisoners miraculously escaped.

In just 10 days in March 1923 I think more than 20 prisoners of war were murdered like this in Co. Kerry.
 

politico24

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I have said what the Free State did was worse but the luring of the Free Staters to a mind filled with shrapnel and explosives was deeply provocative and bound to elicit a murderous response. Neither side can crow about anything in the Civil War.

What you make of the way the old farmer and his family were treated by the IRA?
 


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