Ballyseedy

Ramzi Nohra

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I have said what the Free State did was worse but the luring of the Free Staters to a mind filled with shrapnel and explosives was deeply provocative and bound to elicit a murderous response. Neither side can crow about anything in the Civil War.

What you make of the way the old farmer and his family were treated by the IRA?
The use of explosives is fairly common in warfare and accepted.

Murdering prisoners is not.
 


pinemartin

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I have said what the Free State did was worse but the luring of the Free Staters to a mind filled with shrapnel and explosives was deeply provocative and bound to elicit a murderous response. Neither side can crow about anything in the Civil War.

What you make of the way the old farmer and his family were treated by the IRA?
there was a civil war, ambushes and booby traps are generally widely used tactics in war.they may be unpleasant but they are considered legitimate acts in conflict.
if you cannot see the difference between this and tying prisoners of war to an explosive device and detonating it , then you need to really take another look. the shooting of some of these men in the legs so that they could not walk just adds to the terror.

I note that you said these elements were routed from the army.when did this happen? as far as I know no one was ever held accountable for these murders.

by trying to say both sides were nearly or as bad as each other in these actions just betrays your political bias and hypocrisy.
 

Cruimh

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And the state records have yet to be corrected about the atrocity. Officially the men were killed while moving an "irregular" road block.

Ballyseedy is the most famous event, but there were another 2 events the same week that were just as callous, if not even more. At the Bahaghs Workhouse near Caherciveen, the day before Ballyseedy, 5 prisoners were first shot in the legs so they couldn't escape, then tied to a barracade with a land mine and blown to bits.

Another four were blown to bits at Countess Bridge in Killarney the same day as Ballyseedy. The Free Staters invloved at Ballyseedy and Countess Bridge should have learned from the actions of those in Caherciveen because 2 prisoners miraculously escaped.

In just 10 days in March 1923 I think more than 20 prisoners of war were murdered like this in Co. Kerry.
Excellent book on this period

Tomorrow was another day by Seamus O'Connor
 

NewGoldDream

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Ballyseedy is the most famous event, but there were another 2 events the same week that were just as callous, if not even more. At the Bahaghs Workhouse near Caherciveen, the day before Ballyseedy, 5 prisoners were first shot in the legs so they couldn't escape, then tied to a barracade with a land mine and blown to bits.

Another four were blown to bits at Countess Bridge in Killarney the same day as Ballyseedy. The Free Staters invloved at Ballyseedy and Countess Bridge should have learned from the actions of those in Caherciveen because 2 prisoners miraculously escaped.

In just 10 days in March 1923 I think more than 20 prisoners of war were murdered like this in Co. Kerry.
Yep.

Truly shocking stuff. Of course one cannot suggest any link with FG, or at least post Richard Mulcahy FG, but on the other hand we cannot be glib and say 'sure it was all the same, they all did bad things'. Some events really will never be forgotten by some, and rightly so, and these events still rankle with some in Kerry because of the utter depravity even in a bloody conflict.
 

pinemartin

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Yep.

Truly shocking stuff. Of course one cannot suggest any link with FG, or at least post Richard Mulcahy FG, but on the other hand we cannot be glib and say 'sure it was all the same, they all did bad things'. Some events really will never be forgotten by some, and rightly so, and these events still rankle with some in Kerry because of the utter depravity even in a bloody conflict.
and because no one was held to account.
 

former wesleyan

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former wesleyan

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cb1979

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[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6diBvajpmk]YouTube - Curious Journey - The 1916 Easter Rising[/ame]

Ken Giffith's documentary Curious Journey contains interviews with many of the participants in the War of Independence. One of his interviewees was David Neligan who was implicated in the torture and selection of the Ballyseedy victims.
 

politico24

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You can't be serious?



What old farmer?
Yes I can be serious, there is nothing glorious in the civil war on either side. You think any Irishman can glory in the fact that brother fought brother?

The old farmer who had all his cattle taken out, money taken, house destroyed because he was a suspected informer?
 

politico24

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there was a civil war, ambushes and booby traps are generally widely used tactics in war.they may be unpleasant but they are considered legitimate acts in conflict.
if you cannot see the difference between this and tying prisoners of war to an explosive device and detonating it , then you need to really take another look. the shooting of some of these men in the legs so that they could not walk just adds to the terror.

I note that you said these elements were routed from the army.when did this happen? as far as I know no one was ever held accountable for these murders.

by trying to say both sides were nearly or as bad as each other in these actions just betrays your political bias and hypocrisy.
I did not equate the two. I quite clearly can see the difference and I explicitly stated so in my posts. I am a hypocrite and biased because I can state nearly 90 years on that our Civil War, like most was a brutal conflict with neither side emerging with anything to be proud of? Maybe its you that needs to take another look if you think anybody can crow about any of the events depicted in that documentary.

The IRA clearly did not have the sympathy of the people in the Civil War and the reasons there were so many informers was because they were such a nuisance against many families. And before anybody starts I am not excusing the despicable attrocity at Ballyseedy, merely pointing out the facts that led to there being informers, lack of sympathy and eventual defeat for the anti-Treaty IRA. This brings me to my next point, neither side emerges with anything to be proud of from the Civil War. That the Free State descended to these depths does not somehow shine a torch of virtue on the anti-Treatyites. A bit like your 'they were nearly as bad as each other' jibe at me, the 'we weren't as bad as they were' line doesn't completely exonerate the IRA.Sean Hales TD was killed as part of an attempt to intimidate Irish politicians who supported the Free State. Lynch said all who had voted for the executions policy would be shot.

As for my point about the army, the army mutiny in 1924? To the best of my knowledge O'Higgins moved against the IRB/IRA/Dublin Guard element in the army and installed a civilian minister of Defence. O'Higgins, Cosgrave, FitzGerald etc were deeply suspicious of the army. They needed it in 1922/23 to win the civil war, but with peace established, moved against it. Demobilisation and the repeated appointment of non military defence ministers effectively democratised the army for want of a better word.
 

pinemartin

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Neither side has much to celebrate. Atrocities were committed on both sides.

Ballyseedy was a dreadful, barbaric atrocity. It was committed by angry, bloodthirsty soldiers in hostile territory as a reprisal for a dreadful, barbaric atrocity committed against their men the previous day.

The Civil War is a stain on Irish history because of the carry on of both sides and it is really improper for anybody to seize any kind of moral high ground with regard to it as a lot of Republicans try to. turdsl says many in FG don't talk about it, maybe it's time people in FF and SF stopped talking about it to.

As for the documentary, it is very good. One point though. How can he implicate Mulcahy the way he does? Seems like a hatchet job on Mulcahy to me. Daly acted within much less than 24 hours of the Knocknagashel atrocity. The documentary states there was no telegrams to or from Dublin and describes this as 'deafening'. He then uses Mulcahy's consent to a different execution to link him to Ballyseedy and quickly moves on. I thought that was really poor. How can he link Mulcahy with it in such a blatant way? The written order was not about Ballyseedy but it is implied that it is.

The court was a sham, i grant you, but I guess these things happen in Civil War and to the best of my knowledge these elements were routed from the army in peacetime in 1924 and didn't that contribute to the army mutiny?O'Higgins and the cabinet moved against the Dublin Guards etc?
you are obviously trying to equate the incidents involving the killing of prisoners and the killing of troops in a booby trap attack.

I still see no evidence that these elements were routed from the army.
 

politico24

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See what you want to see so. I won't change your mind.

I'm trying to say NOTHING about the Civil War was in any way edifying.
 

former wesleyan

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you are obviously trying to equate the incidents involving the killing of prisoners and the killing of troops in a booby trap attack.

I still see no evidence that these elements were routed from the army.
The prisoners were regarded as traitors rather than prisoners. The vote was to accept the Treaty and Collins called DeV and those who walked out traitors.
 

Ramzi Nohra

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The prisoners were regarded as traitors rather than prisoners. The vote was to accept the Treaty and Collins called DeV and those who walked out traitors.
Isnt that just an excuse to justify the illegal and immoral killing of prisoners? It was the same logic, for example, that the British used vis a vis the 1916 rebels
 
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