Bank Bondholders - Just who are they?

Digout

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Seeing as we are expected to bail them out, surely we should know who we are bailing out, and how much their liability is?

I'm asking any legal heads here if there is any mechanism that can be used to find this information?

Could the supreme court be used for a case to find this information?
 


Christel

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How many developers are amongst them? Would be nice to know. Or people of related industry.

Such as Quinn, who was/is stakeholder of what bank?
 

Digout

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How many developers are amongst them? Would be nice to know. Or people of related industry.

Such as Quinn, who was/is stakeholder of what bank?
I would like to know if there any politicians, as this would be a conflict of interest when they vote in the Dail for SCAMA.
 

Christel

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I would like to know if there any politicians, as this would be a conflict of interest when they vote in the Dail for SCAMA.
I thought od them as well.

But I'd see a conflict of interest also if there were developers that have bad loans.

What would happen in such a case? Would a bank be able to go for their money due for the loans? And taking it away from their own shareholders, who I understand are financing the bank, if they were the same people? (My understanding of all this is lacking.)
 

Digout

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But I'd see a conflict of interest also if there were developers that have bad loans.
Very good point, did not think of this. Or another angle, if developers who give "donations" to FF are bondholders ?

The information has to be made public. Can this information be released by taking a supreme court case?
 

PaddyJoe McGillycuddy

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For instance a cerain Mr. Ahern:
Bertie (Dublin Central)

1. Occupational Income …….. (1)AHERN Voluntary member of Global Agenda Council: World Economic Forum, 91-93 Route de la Capite, CH-1223 Cologny/Geneva, Switzerland; (2) Speaker for World Lecture Agency: Washington Speakers Bureau, 1663 Prince Street, Alexandria, VA22314, USA; (3) Compere for RTE Road to Croker programme: Ventry, Co. Kerry.

Other Information Provided: (3) fee received donated to local GAA Club.

2. Shares …………………….. Nil

3. Directorships……………… (1) Director-Vice Chairman of Advisory Board: Parker Green International, Drumalane Mill, Newry, Co. Down: internationally established private property development and investment company; (2) Voluntary Member of the Board: Co-operation Ireland, 20 Herbert Place, Dublin 2: developing links between all communities living on the island of Ireland.

4. Land ……………………… Nil

5. Gifts ……………………… Honorary Membership of Clontarf Golf Club for the year 2008: Clontarf Golf Club.

Other Information Provided: I do not receive any material benefit from this as I do not play golf.

6. Property and Service …….. See Donation Statement for 2008 (Form 2) under the Electoral Act 1997 (as amended).

7. Travel Facilities ………….. (1) Flights and attendance at European Cup Final in Moscow 20/21 May '08: The Chello Foundation, Michelin House, 81 Fulham Road, London; (2) Flights, accommodation in New York 12/13 June, attending the International Foundation for the protection of Human Rights Defenders. As the Aer Lingus flight was cancelled one of the organisers gave me a seat on a private jet return; (3) Flights to and from London, 28 June '08: speaker at Chello Foundation Ball; (4) Flights and accommodation in Malta, 8-11th September: Parker Green International, Drumalane Mill, Newry, Co. Down; (5) Flights return to London and accommodation, 19-20 September: Irish Post Awards; (6) Flights and accommodation, New York 24-26 September: Co-operation Ireland, 20 Herbert Place, Dublin 2; (7) Flights and accommodation to Equador, 29 September-3 October: Washington Speakers Bureau, 1663 Prince Street, Alexandra, VA22314, USA; (8) Flights and accommdoation to Korea, 13-16 October: Washington Speakers Bureau; (9) Flights and accommodation to London, 17-18 October: Boyne Trust House of Lords.

Other Information Provided: Since retiring as Taoiseach, I have attended a large number of functions for charities, practically all on the island of Ireland for which no costs are received. Details of all other functions attended outside of Ireland are provided on Part 7- Travel Facilities.

8. Remunerated Position ……. Nil

9. Contracts …………………. Nil



Like the bit about the golf club!
 

Digout

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Does anybody have any suggestions on how we can find out who the bondholders are?
 

DCon

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Does anybody have any suggestions on how we can find out who the bondholders are?
you might be able to get them from a Bloomberg terminal. The Bloomberg website does not have enough detail
 

feargach

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I doubt very much that this info is possible to extract. Any more than the shareholders of regular companies are possible to pinpoint.
 

Bobert

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Banks, hedge funds, probably very little from within the state.
 

powderfinger

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I am not sure where CMBS(commercial mortgage backed securities )come into the equation.As such this may indeed be irrelevant.Anyway.Anglo Irish Bank issued cmbs' through a vehicle called Proodos funding.
It may be coincidental but is there any other reason that an issuance and subsequent redemption appears to have taken place on dates that are the same as the announcement of the Blanket Guarantee and the nationalisation of Anglo?
The date for issuance.September 29 2008. Market News
The redemption date.January 15 2009.Market News

The amount of debt security issued and redeemed was €2,269,351,591.00
 
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seabhac siulach

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In terms of Anglo Irish bank, the subordinated bonds are held mainly by European pension funds, banks and asset managers. Among those holding them are HSBC, Nordea Bank, DWS Investments and US fund Capital Research. I assume the same entities hold bonds in the other banks.

See: Debt markets believe Ireland may force losses on Anglo bonds

Interestingly, we see from this article that Sean Fitzpatrick (of Anglo infamy) has a part of a subordinated bond of 750 million in Anglo Irish Bank.

"Sean FitzPatrick, ex-Anglo chairman, invested in a dated subordinated bond maturing in 2017 with a face value of €750m. "

If memory serves his obligation was of some 5.5 million euro. In fact, Sunday Business Post | Irish Business News. Based on this, can we assume that a substantial minority of bondholders in Irish banks are actually Irish individuals (former visitors of the Galway tent, say)?

Seems Fitzpatrick's luck may be about to run out, in any case (we can only hope), based on that Tribune article. My heart bleeds for Fitzpatrick, it really does...
 
D

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One thing that bothers me is if some of these bondholders are the very same people we are being told won´t deal with us - or will screw us on interest rates - unless we honour the banks´debts. In other words " we will wreck your country unless you bail us out of our bad investments" ?:mad:
 

NapperTandy

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Seeing as we are expected to bail them out, surely we should know who we are bailing out, and how much their liability is?

I'm asking any legal heads here if there is any mechanism that can be used to find this information?

Could the supreme court be used for a case to find this information?
Good points, I was just thinking the same thing myself recently. Why isn't this info freely available? Is there not a register for the bondholders similar to the shareholders register? I would imagine it is full of dodgy characters, maybe this has what has got FF worried??
 

Bobert

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Good, so no harm in making this information public then.
Personally I believe ones financial investments ought to be kept secret regardless of the situation. (Unless someone blabs it all over politics.ie... *glares at Cookie*)
 

Digout

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Personally I believe ones financial investments ought to be kept secret regardless of the situation. (Unless someone blabs it all over politics.ie... *glares at Cookie*)
Why should it be kept secret? We are the ones keeping them afloat. If I want a mortgage the bank wants to know everything about me, so, if they want my cash, I want to know whats going on with them.
 

cyberianpan

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I doubt very much that this info is possible to extract. Any more than the shareholders of regular companies are possible to pinpoint.
It can be got easily enough

You can wade through various investor relations reports and stock market returns (for either bond or equity) - but that will take a very long time

Best way is to pay a subscription service ... that I recall FTS were hawking that stuff a few years back - but think it is more boutique since

cYp
 

Christel

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I doubt very much that this info is possible to extract. Any more than the shareholders of regular companies are possible to pinpoint.
I don't even know the difference between shareholders and bondholders.

Anyway: would such info be accessible if the banks were nationalised?
 


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