Bank Bondholders - Just who are they?

feargach

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I don't even know the difference between shareholders and bondholders.

Anyway: would such info be accessible if the banks were nationalised?
If you own one share in a company X, you get one vote in the appointment of the company's management. That management may or may not give you some money called a "dividend" every year or so.

If you own a bond from company X, then they owe you money, and must pay you a set amount of interest every year for the duration of the bond. A bond and a loan are the same thing. When Ireland borrows money, it does it in the form of bonds. The interest is paid to whomever owns the bond, so a bond can be traded around from investor to investor. When somebody fails to pay the holder of the bond, he has defaulted.
 


Bobert

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Why should it be kept secret? We are the ones keeping them afloat. If I want a mortgage the bank wants to know everything about me, so, if they want my cash, I want to know whats going on with them.
No you're not. The taxpayer is the one being screwed because there is no long term viability to the present banking sector. We may as well be burning money.
 

Christel

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If you own one share in a company X, you get one vote in the appointment of the company's management. That management may or may not give you some money called a "dividend" every year or so.

If you own a bond from company X, then they owe you money, and must pay you a set amount of interest every year for the duration of the bond. A bond and a loan are the same thing. When Ireland borrows money, it does it in the form of bonds. The interest is paid to whomever owns the bond, so a bond can be traded around from investor to investor. When somebody fails to pay the holder of the bond, he has defaulted.
Thanks.

So a share is more of gambling in comparison to a bond?
If I buy a bond I'm so to say a bank that gives a loan, say to the government, and I'm owed that money + interest? Is that it?
 

Digout

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No you're not. The taxpayer is the one being screwed because there is no long term viability to the present banking sector. We may as well be burning money.
at least burning money would be kind of fun. As a former PD i'm surprised to see you are against this....
 

Donegal55

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Shareholders usually benefit also from an increase in the capital value of their investment as well as the dividends.
They also share in the distribution of any retained profits on a winding up.

So if u buy shares, in normal circumstances u will get
a dividend twice a year.
see an increase in the capital value.
Share in retained profits in a winding up

a bond holder just gets his interest and at the end gets his capital back.
 

hopper

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Aug 23, 2009
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Seeing as we are expected to bail them out, surely we should know who we are bailing out, and how much their liability is?

I'm asking any legal heads here if there is any mechanism that can be used to find this information?

Could the supreme court be used for a case to find this information?
Likely all of us through our pensions.....get real and wise up !
 

Kensington

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So a share is more of gambling in comparison to a bond?
Yes, though i suppose that the country could collapse, but Government bonds are generally regarded as being very safe and also usually give a poor return.

Over the Greenspan era, the return on Government bonds was kept very low indeed, so the guys (with huge amounts of money) who would normally buy bonds, decided to look elsewhere. They, unfortuantely for us, looked at mortage-backed securities. And, there is where our sorry saga begins!
 

Bobert

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at least burning money would be kind of fun. As a former PD i'm surprised to see you are against this....
I'm not former PD TD Bobby Molly.

And why wouldn't I be against burning taxpayer money?

No, what I'm against is the neanderthal practices of banging trash cans on rooftops while shrieking about everything business related and just reacting. Off course we're scared but we need a proper thought out plan to both plug holes and secure our futures. This [demanding the names on bondholders to be published] will do neither and will only make it even more difficult to conduct business in this country.
 

Digout

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I'm not former PD TD Bobby Molly.

And why wouldn't I be against burning taxpayer money?

No, what I'm against is the neanderthal practices of banging trash cans on rooftops while shrieking about everything business related and just reacting. Off course we're scared but we need a proper thought out plan to both plug holes and secure our futures. This [demanding the names on bondholders to be published] will do neither and will only make it even more difficult to conduct business in this country.
Its already impossible to do business in this country. I smell a massive rat here, FF are doing all in their power to bail out somebody, and ya can be certain they dont have the interest of the citizens at heart.
 

Bobert

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Its already impossible to do business in this country. I smell a massive rat here, FF are doing all in their power to bail out somebody, and ya can be certain they dont have the interest of the citizens at heart.
It's not a conspiracy. They're just really, really stupid. That's the harsh reality. Now, what does that say about the quality of Fine Gael...
 

Digout

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Now, what does that say about the quality of Fine Gael...
I would never accuse FG of being bright, but, look at what happened on RTE this weekend. Kenny got filleted for not knowing his figures, yet, today, Lenny was the same, no idea on the numbers, and he got let off.

In fairness, Kenny should have not been filleted if he gave the reply "when FF give us the data then we will give you a costing, FF have no even given a costing yet and they have had the data for months".
 

Bobert

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I would never accuse FG of being bright, but, look at what happened on RTE this weekend. Kenny got filleted for not knowing his figures, yet, today, Lenny was the same, no idea on the numbers, and he got let off.

In fairness, Kenny should have not been filleted if he gave the reply "when FF give us the data then we will give you a costing, FF have no even given a costing yet and they have had the data for months".
Actually, who do you vote for?
 

Bobert

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Oh right. Well, that's enough off topic ramblings.
 

InReality

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So why is Lenihen so afraid for Bond holders to loose money ?

Can international investors distinguish between "Ireland" and "Bank of Ireland" ?

or can they not ??
 

Bobert

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Digout

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Can international investors distinguish between "Ireland" and "Bank of Ireland" ?
I believe they can. I also believe any serious investor would not put a cent into either. Bobert reckons that FF are just stupid, but I think this goes far beyond stupidity. Some very rotten going on. Look at everything that went on with Anglo, FF did everything they could to keep it afloat, its a bank with not one ATM in the country. Its not even a bank, its a property hedge fund. The same is going on with the other banks.

Even before the scandals broke in Anglo, I was told by some financial people that a number of banks had lent money to "high net worth" customers to buy shares and prop up the banks shares.....
 

InReality

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So why is Lenihen so afraid for Bond holders to loose money ?
Yes that's one reason he would not nationalize the banks , as far as I can tell.
That if the 'Bank of Ireland' bondholders loose money , no one will buy 'Irish Government' bonds.
I've been reading "The return of depression economics" and some of the stuff 'international investors' do is very impulse driven,so I think it is possible risk.

In the context of everything else that's wrong I think he's giving that possible risk , (cause that's all it is) , too much importance though.

Anyone agree/disagree ?
 
Joined
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For instance a cerain Mr. Ahern:
Bertie (Dublin Central)

1. Occupational Income …….. (1)AHERN Voluntary member of Global Agenda Council: World Economic Forum, 91-93 Route de la Capite, CH-1223 Cologny/Geneva, Switzerland; (2) Speaker for World Lecture Agency: Washington Speakers Bureau, 1663 Prince Street, Alexandria, VA22314, USA; (3) Compere for RTE Road to Croker programme: Ventry, Co. Kerry.

Other Information Provided: (3) fee received donated to local GAA Club.

2. Shares …………………….. Nil

3. Directorships……………… (1) Director-Vice Chairman of Advisory Board: Parker Green International, Drumalane Mill, Newry, Co. Down: internationally established private property development and investment company; (2) Voluntary Member of the Board: Co-operation Ireland, 20 Herbert Place, Dublin 2: developing links between all communities living on the island of Ireland.

4. Land ……………………… Nil

5. Gifts ……………………… Honorary Membership of Clontarf Golf Club for the year 2008: Clontarf Golf Club.

Other Information Provided: I do not receive any material benefit from this as I do not play golf.

6. Property and Service …….. See Donation Statement for 2008 (Form 2) under the Electoral Act 1997 (as amended).

7. Travel Facilities ………….. (1) Flights and attendance at European Cup Final in Moscow 20/21 May '08: The Chello Foundation, Michelin House, 81 Fulham Road, London; (2) Flights, accommodation in New York 12/13 June, attending the International Foundation for the protection of Human Rights Defenders. As the Aer Lingus flight was cancelled one of the organisers gave me a seat on a private jet return; (3) Flights to and from London, 28 June '08: speaker at Chello Foundation Ball; (4) Flights and accommodation in Malta, 8-11th September: Parker Green International, Drumalane Mill, Newry, Co. Down; (5) Flights return to London and accommodation, 19-20 September: Irish Post Awards; (6) Flights and accommodation, New York 24-26 September: Co-operation Ireland, 20 Herbert Place, Dublin 2; (7) Flights and accommodation to Equador, 29 September-3 October: Washington Speakers Bureau, 1663 Prince Street, Alexandra, VA22314, USA; (8) Flights and accommdoation to Korea, 13-16 October: Washington Speakers Bureau; (9) Flights and accommodation to London, 17-18 October: Boyne Trust House of Lords.

Other Information Provided: Since retiring as Taoiseach, I have attended a large number of functions for charities, practically all on the island of Ireland for which no costs are received. Details of all other functions attended outside of Ireland are provided on Part 7- Travel Facilities.

8. Remunerated Position ……. Nil

9. Contracts …………………. Nil



Like the bit about the golf club!

On the subject of the golf club.. Would Mr Ahern have benefitted if the deal to buy the grounds of said golf club by a developer and swop said grounds for a golf course/hotel complex in Portmarnock had gone through? Dublin City Council apparently were holding up the deal which had been approved by the members of the golf club as there was some question over the title to the lands. Some rellies of mine were dissapointed as they were genuine members who thought they were in for a windfall and lovely new facilities...
 

powderfinger

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Jun 13, 2007
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3,350
For instance a cerain Mr. Ahern:
Bertie (Dublin Central)

1. Occupational Income …….. (1)AHERN Voluntary member of Global Agenda Council: World Economic Forum, 91-93 Route de la Capite, CH-1223 Cologny/Geneva, Switzerland; (2) Speaker for World Lecture Agency: Washington Speakers Bureau, 1663 Prince Street, Alexandria, VA22314, USA; (3) Compere for RTE Road to Croker programme: Ventry, Co. Kerry.

Other Information Provided: (3) fee received donated to local GAA Club.

2. Shares …………………….. Nil

3. Directorships……………… (1) Director-Vice Chairman of Advisory Board: Parker Green International, Drumalane Mill, Newry, Co. Down: internationally established private property development and investment company; (2) Voluntary Member of the Board: Co-operation Ireland, 20 Herbert Place, Dublin 2: developing links between all communities living on the island of Ireland.

4. Land ……………………… Nil

5. Gifts ……………………… Honorary Membership of Clontarf Golf Club for the year 2008: Clontarf Golf Club.

Other Information Provided: I do not receive any material benefit from this as I do not play golf.

6. Property and Service …….. See Donation Statement for 2008 (Form 2) under the Electoral Act 1997 (as amended).

7. Travel Facilities ………….. (1) Flights and attendance at European Cup Final in Moscow 20/21 May '08: The Chello Foundation, Michelin House, 81 Fulham Road, London; (2) Flights, accommodation in New York 12/13 June, attending the International Foundation for the protection of Human Rights Defenders. As the Aer Lingus flight was cancelled one of the organisers gave me a seat on a private jet return; (3) Flights to and from London, 28 June '08: speaker at Chello Foundation Ball; (4) Flights and accommodation in Malta, 8-11th September: Parker Green International, Drumalane Mill, Newry, Co. Down; (5) Flights return to London and accommodation, 19-20 September: Irish Post Awards; (6) Flights and accommodation, New York 24-26 September: Co-operation Ireland, 20 Herbert Place, Dublin 2; (7) Flights and accommodation to Equador, 29 September-3 October: Washington Speakers Bureau, 1663 Prince Street, Alexandra, VA22314, USA; (8) Flights and accommdoation to Korea, 13-16 October: Washington Speakers Bureau; (9) Flights and accommodation to London, 17-18 October: Boyne Trust House of Lords.

Other Information Provided: Since retiring as Taoiseach, I have attended a large number of functions for charities, practically all on the island of Ireland for which no costs are received. Details of all other functions attended outside of Ireland are provided on Part 7- Travel Facilities.

8. Remunerated Position ……. Nil

9. Contracts …………………. Nil



Like the bit about the golf club!
"Since retiring as Taoiseach...etc."
What does that sentence mean?
 


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