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Bankruptcy - is travelling to the UK an option?


NAMAwinelake

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I started another thread called Negative Equity - a narrow window to act? which was to examine if Ireland's 50c in the euro bankruptcy was an option now for people with substantial negative equity who were struggling to pay. If negative equity gets worse then the 50c in the euro discharge might not be an option - therefore the "narrow window ?". That thread is here.

http://www.politics.ie/economy/130263-negative-equity-narrow-window-act.html

During the course of the discussions the UK was mentioned by a few commentators as a place which seems to have less draconian rules on bankruptcy than the State. This article from a UK finance website might give you an idea of what it's about but the headline that grabbed many people's attention was a possible discharge in 12 months.

UK could face wave of bankruptcy tourism | This is Money

Has anyone any experience of travelling to the UK for bankruptcy, or know people who have? What do you think of us lining the pockets of the British legal profession for something which our own government won't reform here? Do you think people going abroad for bankruptcies is unpatriotic? And will their actions just hurt all in society in the end? Would it work?

As with the other thread, it's worth saying that bankruptcy is a serious business whereever it's initiated and people who might be struggling with debt might also be vulnerable and at their wits-end. Before doing anything I think it would be good advice to GET INDEPENDENT QUALIFIED ADVICE (be cautious with any organisations that either charge money or have debt restructuring products, they're in business for profit).

There are many sources of advice and information on bankruptcy in the UK. Many are private organisations that mightn't be the best place to start because they may mostly be interested in making a profit from you. The UK government website might be a good place to start and they have a lot of information on UK bankruptcy at

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTaxAndBenefits/ManagingDebt/Bankruptcy/index.htm

There are also links on the UK government website for free legal advice. If a website has .gov.uk at the end it is a government website. quangos use the .org.uk or .org suffixes but be careful - so do private companies.
 
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MsAnneThrope

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I remember being astonished when I read this post. Surely it's not this easy? If it is how many of our busted 'Celtic Tigers', with loans galore headed for NAMA, are at it?

Wrong as has been done for years, remember within 1 year you are out of bankruptcy in UK V 12 in Ireland.

2 years to live in Uk with lots of trips home paid for by the wife who you separated from and whose rent is paid for by the State as a deserted wife, after 2 years a reconciliation occurs amazingly coinciding with release from bankruptcy
If you took that advice you could even take in the Olympics, while living it up in the UK and getting the plebs back home here to pick up your tabs. Wonderful.
 
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Aindriu

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Why bother registering for bankruptcy over there? Just leave here for there and disappear. Debt gone ;)
 
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What happened to the government reviewing our own bankruptcy and insolvency laws? I thought they were planning to be on par with the UK?
 

SAT

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Why bother registering for bankruptcy over there? Just leave here for there and disappear. Debt gone ;)
Far from being gone the debt will continue to increase in your absence as interest piles up as will the county court judgements against you which will sail through uncontested.
 

scratchnsniff

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Why bother registering for bankruptcy over there? Just leave here for there and disappear. Debt gone ;)
that's a good trick, (obviously immoral and one i cant condone blah blah)
20 years ago a friend of mine moved to France, he took up a loan (Around 15 grand) and went around all the stores filling up his van on buy now pay later deals, (He was living in England) he made two trips over completely fitting out his house and getting his shed sorted as well. then he handed in his keys to his landlord and effectively disappeared. Sadly he passed away a few years later, but no one came looking for him.
I would have no sympathy for any credit company or bank getting stung that way, but if it was local businesses you owed money to that would be something else.

Actually, France ain't looking to bad right now.
 

Aindriu

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Far from being gone the debt will continue to increase in your absence as interest piles up as will the county court judgements against you which will sail through uncontested.
Of course it will be gone. They can't get an international arrest warrant for it and if you stay away for a number of years they cannot take court action against you.
 

scratchnsniff

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Of course it will be gone. They can't get an international arrest warrant for it and if you stay away for a number of years they cannot take court action against you.
my friends theory was that the finance companies would not make to much fuss as they didn't whant to many people knowing how easy it was to rip them off.
 

SAT

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Of course it will be gone. They can't get an international arrest warrant for it and if you stay away for a number of years they cannot take court action against you.
Some people on here may act on what posters write so you really should be more careful before posting complete drivel. They can pursue you for the debt wherever you live up to and including a committal order and only if the debt is 'untouched' for 6 years does the statute of limitations apply. Even then before this expiry date the lending agent will often apply to the courts for a judgement against you which will probably include a 'charge' against any remaining assets you have or even may have in the future, just in case you ever are in a position to pay, these judgements never expire.

So unless you are leaving the country with a wad of money to go and live forever in an extradition exempt country it probably isn't worth it.
 
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Some people on here may act on what posters write so you really should be more careful before posting complete drivel.

All debt in Ireland becomes statuate barred after 6 years without any Court Judgements.

If you have a court Judgment it takes 12 years to becomme statuate barred from the date of the judgement.

Simply pay the minimum amount of money owed that the Court awards which is usually very little depending on your circumstances and after 12 years walk away from the debt. So if you owe €300,000 and you can only afford to pay €100 per week, 12 years after the judgement you can simply walk away from the debt as it becommes Statuate Barred.
 

johnfás

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Of course it will be gone. They can't get an international arrest warrant for it and if you stay away for a number of years they cannot take court action against you.
If they find you they can enforce the judgment against you and any assets you hold in your current country of residence. It is relatively easy to enforce a judgment against a person in most foreign jurisdictions with a developed legal system - particularly those with which we have friendly relations. Even more so in the Europe Union where one can automatically enforce a judgment under the Brussels Regulation on the Recognition and Enforcement of Judgments.

In short, you'd want to be discerning in terms of where you flee to.

Of course if they can't find your assets, then that is a different matter.
 
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Ireland is really missing out of changing our bankruptcy laws.

Imagine all those Germans etc who would flock here to become bankrupt if our laws simply were modernised in line with the UK.

All those houses that could be rented out, all the money spent here as people pretend Ireland is their new home!
 

SAT

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Simply pay the minimum amount of money owed that the Court awards which is usually very little depending on your circumstances and after 12 years walk away from the debt. So if you owe €300,000 and you can only afford to pay €100 per week, 12 years after the judgement you can simply walk away from the debt as it becommes Statuate Barred.
You would also be blacklisted by the credit rating agencies. I imagine life would be very difficult without any access to credit whatsoever. Even something as basic as utility bills would need a guarantor to stand over them and I imagine for somebody who has just walked away from a mountain of debt such guarantors would be hard to come by.

It is also worth remembering banks sell their bad debts to debt collection agencies who are expert at being very intrusive whilst staying within the law and so if a sizeable amount of money is involved you can expect many embarrassing moments in the years ahead.
 
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You would also be blacklisted by the credit rating agencies. I imagine life would be very difficult without any access to credit whatsoever. Even something as basic as utility bills would need a guarantor to stand over them and I imagine for somebody who has just walked away from a mountain of debt such guarantors would be hard to come by.
Credit agencies only keep records for 6 years.

And of course if you already have things such as Credit Cards, or a ESB account it wont make any difference.

OPen up a new bank account and keep in good practice with them, if you ever need a loan they will look at how you managed your bank account well before they ever look at credit agencies.

Anyhow if you have debt thatyou cant pay back and get a CCJ and end up paying small amounts, you will never get a good credit rating anyhow!
 
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SAT

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Credit agencies only keep records for 6 years.
Nonsense :rolleyes: In fact the length of time your accounts have been open is the third most heavily weighed factor in your credit rating score (after timeliness of payments and the amount you owe)

Meanwhile back on the topic of bankruptcy it is worth noting credit card issuers will often challenge the discharge of their debt in a bankruptcy hearing by filing an adversary proceeding claiming that the debt was incurred by fraud.

Any of the following triggers could give rise to a challenge;

# Increase in credit card usage shortly before filing
# Newly issued card
# Large cash advances in months before filing
# Use of card for recent travel or vacations
# Pattern of borrowing on one card to make payments on others
# Exceeding credit limit
# Using card when unemployed or without reasonable belief that the debt can be repaid
# Large balance at filing
# Charges made after consulting bankruptcy lawyer

So if anyone is thinking of going on a credit card spending spree before looking for bankruptcy I would strongly advise against it. Unfortunately anyone who used their cards out of desperation to try and stave off insolvency will also find they have fallen foul of the rules.
 
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Nonsense :rolleyes: In fact the length of time your accounts have been open is the third most heavily weighed factor in your credit rating score (after timeliness of payments and the amount you owe)

But like I have said, you will have a BAD credit rating anyhow, if you have a CCJ you will never get Credit again if your paying back huge sums on minimum repayments.

Simply walk away from your debts after 12 years is a far better option than still making minimum repayments in the hope you can have a clean credit rating at retirement!
 

NAMAwinelake

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But why run away from your debts. People with massive debt haven't killed babies. They made mistakes - sometimes the mistakes were reckless, more often than not as far as I can see, people were doing the best they could spurred on by what Frank Daly of NAMA called groupthink yesterday (he was talking about developers but the same could apply to all those people trying to get on or move up the property ladder in the mid 2000s).

So given these people with massive debts haven't killed anyone, why not just explore your legal options. Sure you could cut and run, and for people nearly out of their minds with worry who could really blame them. But the laws available allow people to become bankrupt and start again - and there appear to be options, and that's where bankruptcy tourism possibly comes in.

If you sitting on a house worth €150k today compared with the €350k mortgage (a 125% mortgage at the peak of the boom madness), credit card debt and personal loans - are you better off confronting that now. As far as I can see if there are only 10 bankruptcies a year then there is a phoney war going on with maybe lenders rolling up interest or deferring payments until something turns up.

How much net debt would you need to have before you'd consider a UK bankruptcy?
 

maxthedog

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Putting people on interest only or reduced payments is an act of cruelty, it would be more humane to put the person in jail.

The mortage still stands, the negative equity increases and the pressure stays full on. You have debts of K350 and neg equity of K150.

Two years later you have a mortage of K365 and neg equity of K220, what is the point of that road, other than the bank keeping you a debt slave.
 

Aindriu

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If they find you they can enforce the judgment against you and any assets you hold in your current country of residence. It is relatively easy to enforce a judgment against a person in most foreign jurisdictions with a developed legal system - particularly those with which we have friendly relations. Even more so in the Europe Union where one can automatically enforce a judgment under the Brussels Regulation on the Recognition and Enforcement of Judgments.

In short, you'd want to be discerning in terms of where you flee to.

Of course if they can't find your assets, then that is a different matter.
All of the above is true, the reality is that it really isn't worth their effort in paying tracing agencies etc, etc.
 

feargach

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Of course it will be gone. They can't get an international arrest warrant for it and if you stay away for a number of years they cannot take court action against you.
Why would they need any kind of international arrest warrant?

They don't need to arrest you, they just need to start proceedings against you in whichever EU or EEA state you happen to be in, surely?

If you're bailing on an Irish bank loan, and have skipped over to Oslo, say, to work as a fisherman, then the bank just applies to the Norwegian courts to have your Norwegian bank account seized and your wages garnished.
 
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