Banks in Ireland compare with troubled Italian banks in EU colour charts of non performing loans

Patslatt1

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See https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-14/get-a-grip-on-europe-s-bad-loan-problem-with-these-five-charts

When the financial crisis struck, a p.ie blogger joked that Irish people in financial difficulty who rent should buy a house immediately because the landlord would evict them but the banks couldn't.

So legacy non performing mortgage loans are still being processed at snailpace rates in typically gridlocked Irish courts. Reform of court procedures is held up thanks to sympathy for home owners who took on mortgages they couldn't afford as well as sentimental comparisons to 19th century evictions of impoverished tenant farmers.

There are severe financial consquences for this situation. Irish small and medium businesses and especially the house building sector can't get sufficient credit.Banks will only give mortgage loans to the strongest credits, such as public sector employees. Mortgage rates are the highest in the eurozone but given the difficulty of home repossessions, foreign banks are afraid to enter the Irish mortgage market.

It looks as if the majority of the young generation of Irish will learn to live as tenants like the Germans but will they be happy to give up the historic house with a small garden?
 


Man or Mouse

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TSB getting rid of €4bn now.

Is that €4bn after write down on their books now does anyone know? Or, would that be the original value of the loans?

Either way, the loans would be written down massively before being sold off and then at a discount to the lower figure.

So, would everyone have been better off if debt forgiveness had been adopted as a policy?

A couple I know bought two houses intending to flip them at precisely the wrong time. Had to become reluctant landlords and the rent came close enough to paying interest on the 100% mortgage in the meantime. Now, they recon the loan is at somewhere less than 50% of the original on the banks books and if they sell it at a discount to that, the couple, or an intermediary may well be able to buy if from the VF at an amount that will actually give them a profit - albeit, delayed - on the whole transaction.

In simple sums, original loan, 100
write down value 50
Sale by bank to VF 40
Couple buyback from VF 60
Present value of property 72
Profit to "entrepreneurs" 12

So, bank writes down 60, which we picked up the tab for, VF makes tidy 50% profit quickly and at no effort and the Guard and Teacher walk away with 12 for their troubles.

Net position is, we picked up the tab for 60 when it need have been only 28, or say 30 in round figures. So who won here? More pertinently, who lost here?
 

Spanner Island

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It's over 10 years since the banking crisis started...

If nothing else the last 10 years has proven how resilient the global economic charade is and how willing we all are to participate in it...

What's the alternative?

Mayhem.

I've given up worrying about the f***in' banks... they're a law unto themselves and they're indulged relentlessly...

Scumbags for the most part...

If they collapse they collapse and if the global economic system implodes it implodes... but there really isn't much point in fretting about it...
 

statsman

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See https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-14/get-a-grip-on-europe-s-bad-loan-problem-with-these-five-charts

When the financial crisis struck, a p.ie blogger joked that Irish people in financial difficulty who rent should buy a house immediately because the landlord would evict them but the banks couldn't.

So legacy non performing mortgage loans are still being processed at snailpace rates in typically gridlocked Irish courts. Reform of court procedures is held up thanks to sympathy for home owners who took on mortgages they couldn't afford as well as sentimental comparisons to 19th century evictions of impoverished tenant farmers.

There are severe financial consquences for this situation. Irish small and medium businesses and especially the house building sector can't get sufficient credit.Banks will only give mortgage loans to the strongest credits, such as public sector employees. Mortgage rates are the highest in the eurozone but given the difficulty of home repossessions, foreign banks are afraid to enter the Irish mortgage market.

It looks as if the majority of the young generation of Irish will learn to live as tenants like the Germans but will they be happy to give up the historic house with a small garden?
Maybe if they were taken into public ownership they'd do better.
 

The_SR

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Maybe if they were taken into public ownership they'd do better.
Its the (public sector) courts fault the (private sector)banks made a bags of it.

You literally couldnt make it up
 

statsman

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Its the (public sector) courts fault the (private sector)banks made a bags of it.

You literally couldnt make it up
Well, Pat could. And did.
 

firefly123

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Its the (public sector) courts fault the (private sector)banks made a bags of it.

You literally couldnt make it up
If pat stubs his toe in the morning it would be the public sectors fault.


And he'd have the graph to prove it
 

HarshBuzz

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Reading that article, it's actually a good news story.

Look at the trends: NPLs are reducing fast and will continue to do so as the Eurozone grows robustly. Nowhere faster than here either.
 

Watcher2

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See https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-14/get-a-grip-on-europe-s-bad-loan-problem-with-these-five-charts

When the financial crisis struck, a p.ie blogger joked that Irish people in financial difficulty who rent should buy a house immediately because the landlord would evict them but the banks couldn't.

So legacy non performing mortgage loans are still being processed at snailpace rates in typically gridlocked Irish courts. Reform of court procedures is held up thanks to sympathy for home owners who took on mortgages they couldn't afford as well as sentimental comparisons to 19th century evictions of impoverished tenant farmers.

There are severe financial consquences for this situation. Irish small and medium businesses and especially the house building sector can't get sufficient credit.Banks will only give mortgage loans to the strongest credits, such as public sector employees. Mortgage rates are the highest in the eurozone but given the difficulty of home repossessions, foreign banks are afraid to enter the Irish mortgage market.

It looks as if the majority of the young generation of Irish will learn to live as tenants like the Germans but will they be happy to give up the historic house with a small garden?
Anyone believing Irish banks are in good health need their heads examined. They are a mess. The tracker scandal is only one example of how in the sh1ts they are. That's more than just poor admin/accounting/legal docs/fraud. Be very sceptical and scared of Irish banks. Even BoI.

EDIT: The tracker scandal is not yet done.
 
Last edited:

HarshBuzz

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Anyone believing Irish banks are in good health need their heads examined. They are a mess. The tracker scandal is only one example of how in the sh1ts they are. That's more than just poor admin/accounting/legal docs/fraud. Be very sceptical and scared of Irish banks. Even BoI.

EDIT: The tracker scandal is not yet done.
Any chance you could back this opinion up with some numbers?

It should be easy. Tell us why this is your opinion
 

Watcher2

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Any chance you could back this opinion up with some numbers?

It should be easy. Tell us why this is your opinion
I don't have exact figures but bad loans, property based, are in double digits percentage wise, DESPITE so called "restructured" loans. I haven't heard the bad business loans have gone away. They got even less light in the past. The tracker scandal is still a big mess. Most likely even more cases out there. Have all the recorded cases been reimbursed? I think not. There will be an avalanche of appeals because the settlements are derisory.bthat is still to come and likely hefty legal fees to go with it. And while the attention has been on mortgage markets, how are the credit card debts coming along? Car loans? All those pdp's or whatever they are called?

And I wouldn't trust published accounts as far as I could throw them in the fire. Noonan let the banks away with untold neffarious things as he drove a horse and cart through competition law and as he robbed our savings accounts. Both of those not directly linked btw.

Oh, and you think it's easy getting accurate figures on it all? You must be joking? Oh yeah, you're another FG/noonan fanboy. Lol
 

HarshBuzz

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Any chance you could back this opinion up with some numbers?

It should be easy. Tell us why this is your opinion
I don't have exact figures but bad loans, property based, are in double digits percentage wise, DESPITE so called "restructured" loans. I haven't heard the bad business loans have gone away. They got even less light in the past. The tracker scandal is still a big mess. Most likely even more cases out there. Have all the recorded cases been reimbursed? I think not. There will be an avalanche of appeals because the settlements are derisory.bthat is still to come and likely hefty legal fees to go with it. And while the attention has been on mortgage markets, how are the credit card debts coming along? Car loans? All those pdp's or whatever they are called?

And I wouldn't trust published accounts as far as I could throw them in the fire. Noonan let the banks away with untold neffarious things as he drove a horse and cart through competition law and as he robbed our savings accounts. Both of those not directly linked btw.

Oh, and you think it's easy getting accurate figures on it all? You must be joking? Oh yeah, you're another FG/noonan fanboy. Lol
Well, that's a reasoned argument! Not.

This is probably pointless as I doubt you understand any of these concepts but let's try a few easy ones:

Tell us your deep thoughts on the capital ratios of BoI and AIB today vs 2011.
Inform us with your enlightened thinking about NLPs at the same two institutions
Give us your wisdom on the subject of CAGR at these banks.

Any time now....:p
 

Watcher2

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Well, that's a reasoned argument! Not.

This is probably pointless as I doubt you understand any of these concepts but let's try a few easy ones:

Tell us your deep thoughts on the capital ratios of BoI and AIB today vs 2011.
Inform us with your enlightened thinking about NLPs at the same two institutions
Give us your wisdom on the subject of CAGR at these banks.

Any time now....:p
Oooooh, I hit a nerve.

Tell us how the banks got on with the Too big to fail regulations? Oh, that's right, our weak fvckbag politicians capitulated to the banking vested interests. Oh, but they weren't the only ones.

Yeah, all your capital ratios have increased. Band aids HB, it's all they are.

Tell us this, if another 2009 happened, especially at current debt levels, how would your ratios stand up?

Back then, our banks and other financial institutions, as you well know, we're operating under tremendous regulatory requirements. Still didn't halt the Armageddon, did it? It's not popular to say, but Seanie had a point when he said it's not more regulation we need, it's smarter regulation. The a,punt of lipstick flying about was embodied in 2009 when, as a so called response, I received a letter from my banks asking me to fulfill the KYC requirements again on my personal accounts because, ya know, light touch regulation and the crash. Lol, fvcking lol.

But any time YOU want to address the points I raised in my post, feel free. Any time now.
 

HarshBuzz

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Jaysus.

That's quite an achievement. Even more incoherent than your last effort.

How about:

I think X because Y (see reputable source Z).

Go on, give it a go. Once you come up with your first structured argument, you'll never look back. I know learning new things is scary but try.
 

Watcher2

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Jaysus.

That's quite an achievement. Even more incoherent than your last effort.

How about:

I think X because Y (see reputable source Z).

Go on, give it a go. Once you come up with your first structured argument, you'll never look back. I know learning new things is scary but try.
Your rush to respond missed my edit where I asked you to back track to address the points I raised in the post from which you deflected.

Lol, but there ya go my banker man.:p
 

Watcher2

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Any chance you could back this opinion up with some numbers?

It should be easy. Tell us why this is your opinion
Ha, I just decided to check on the current share price of BOI. I used own them. Bought at under 10 cent and sold at 36 c or there a outs. Today they are just 18 cent. Must be because they are doing so well.

:p
 

gerhard dengler

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Reading that article, it's actually a good news story.

Look at the trends: NPLs are reducing fast and will continue to do so as the Eurozone grows robustly. Nowhere faster than here either.
No.

Unless the loans are being repaid, they remain unpaid.
 

stopdoingstuff

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Maybe if they were taken into public ownership they'd do better.
It would seem to be the case on the surface but when you think about it would only compound the moral hazard like with Freddie and Fannie.
 

HarshBuzz

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No.

Unless the loans are being repaid, they remain unpaid.
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/financial-services/eu-backs-irish-progress-on-non-performing-loans-1.3359943?mode=amp

Key point:
The non-performing loan (NPL) ratio – the percentage of total gross loans and advances – came down from 14.6 per cent in June 2016 to 11.6 per cent in June 2017
and

The number of accounts for principal dwellings in arrears has continued to fall every quarter since 2013
 


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