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Battle of Liberals Vs Conservatives in Irish Times


Honecker

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Oct 19, 2012
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4,777
Interesting debate on gay marriage in the IT between Fintan O'Toole and Breda O'Brien. O'Toole essentially gives a classic liberal position ie. Gay Marriage will not affect anyone else except the individuals involved so therefore it should be allowed. This on it's own is a perfectly fine position but Fintan goes down the road of what I call "liberal fascism" when he essentially states that anyone who doesn't agree with him must be a bigot. Is it really acceptable to make statements like this?

I know we’re all supposed to be civil and respectful about this, but let me be honest: I don’t respect the arguments against gay marriage. I don’t respect them because I don’t think they are really arguments at all. They are a pseudo-rational veneer on irrational prejudice. They are so weak that I don’t think any intelligent person would believe them unless he or she had already decided that gay men and lesbian women are not deserving of full human equality. And that decision isn’t respectable – it’s vile.


The liberals in Ireland seem to be gradually stopping to make valid arguments to support their positions and instead just slander their opponents as being homophobes, bigots, sexists, misogynists etc.

Sayonara baby, our marriage is a sham - Social Affairs & News from Ireland & Abroad | The Irish Times - Tue, Apr 16, 2013

Interestingly Breda O'Brien argues in favour of the common good and society. Now I don't necessarily agree with her but it is ironic that the so called leftist Fintan O'Toole has taken up the mantle of individual freedom while right wing O'Brien argues about the good of society. O'Brien also seem to have a lot more humility and common courtesy when debating.

To oppose gay marriage is not necessarily a bigoted position - Social Affairs & News from Ireland & Abroad | The Irish Times - Sat, Apr 20, 2013

I genuinely fear for the future of the left as it seems to be dominated by elitist liberal snobs who want to just abuse anyone who doesn't think the same way as them. The left needs to get back to arguing positions that will increase the living standards of the working class, creating jobs, public services etc and stop calling working class people bigots.
 
Last edited:

odlum

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May 29, 2007
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Thankfully we have one political party (Fianna Fáil) which appeals to both liberals and conservatives at the same time led by an inspirational leader.
 

Honecker

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Oct 19, 2012
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Thankfully we have one political party (Fianna Fáil) which appeals to both liberals and conservatives at the same time led by an inspirational leader.
:roll:
 

cricket

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Nov 7, 2009
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14,029
Interesting debate on gay marriage in the IT between Fintan O'Toole and Breda O'Brien. O'Toole essentially gives a classic liberal position ie. Gay Marriage will not affect anyone else except the individuals involved so therefore it should be allowed. This on it's own is a perfectly fine position but Fintan goes down the road of what I call "liberal fascism" when he essentially states that anyone who doesn't agree with him must be a bigot. Is it really acceptable to make statements like this?

I know we’re all supposed to be civil and respectful about this, but let me be honest: I don’t respect the arguments against gay marriage. I don’t respect them because I don’t think they are really arguments at all. They are a pseudo-rational veneer on irrational prejudice. They are so weak that I don’t think any intelligent person would believe them unless he or she had already decided that gay men and lesbian women are not deserving of full human equality. And that decision isn’t respectable – it’s vile.


The liberals in Ireland seem to gradually stopping to make valid arguments to support their positions and instead just slander their opponents as being homophobes, bigots, sexists, misogynists etc.

Sayonara baby, our marriage is a sham - Social Affairs & News from Ireland & Abroad | The Irish Times - Tue, Apr 16, 2013

Interestingly Breda O'Brien argues argues in favour of the common good and society. Now I don't necessarily agree with her but it is ironic that the so called leftist Fintan O'Toole has taken up the mantle of individual freedom while right wing O'Brien argues about the good of society. O'Brien also seem to have a lot more humility and common courtesy when debating.

To oppose gay marriage is not necessarily a bigoted position - Social Affairs & News from Ireland & Abroad | The Irish Times - Sat, Apr 20, 2013

I genuinely fear for the future of the left as it seems to be dominated by elitist liberal snobs who want to just abuse anyone who doesn't think the same way as them. The left needs to get back to arguing positions that will increase the living standards of the working class, creating jobs, public services etc and stop calling working class people bigots.
I would find it hard to disagree with O'Toole on this one. Maybe his language is a bit strong, but the argument that gay marriage undermines straight marriage is often trotted out, but never logically.
 

DuineEile

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14,939
Thankfully we have one political party (Fianna Fáil) which appeals to both liberals and conservatives at the same time led by an inspirational leader.
Mods, can you ask the owners to provide a Sick Bucket smiley?



D
 

Zerubbabel

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Mar 3, 2013
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The liberals in Ireland seem to gradually stopping to make valid arguments to support their positions and instead just slander their opponents as being homophobes, bigots, sexists, misogynists etc.
Have you only noticed this ? Its always been the way.
 

GDPR

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I would find it hard to disagree with O'Toole on this one. Maybe his language is a bit strong, but the argument that gay marriage undermines straight marriage is often trotted out, but never logically.
There is a logic to it, you may not agree with it, but logic it is.

If you take it that the only reason for marriage is as a protection for the children of that marriage, then in a situation where there will be no children, why have a marriage?
 
Joined
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Messages
19,084
I would find it hard to disagree with O'Toole on this one. Maybe his language is a bit strong, but the argument that gay marriage undermines straight marriage is often trotted out, but never logically.
His assertion that those who oppose gay marriage must be anti-gay sits rather uneasily with the number of openly gay people who either oppose or see no need for gay marriage. I haven't made up my mind on the issue myself - to me no marriage exists apart from the sacramental one, so I don't even view straight civil marriage as a proper marriage (though obviously others will view it precisely as such due to it being recognized in law). So long as no-one is forced to administer sacramental marriage against their will, be it gay or straight, I am sort of open-minded about what the law says about civil gay marriage.
 

artfoley56

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Mar 24, 2011
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9,601
Thankfully we have one political party (Fianna Fáil) which appeals to both liberals and conservatives at the same time led by an inspirational leader.
if by appealling you mean would like to have shot then yes.

i think you have a problem spelling insipid, its not spelt inspirational
 

cricket

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There is a logic to it, you may not agree with it, but logic it is.

If you take it that the only reason for marriage is as a protection for the children of that marriage, then in a situation where there will be no children, why have a marriage?
That's if you believe that having children is the sole reason for marriage.
 
D

Deleted member 17573

His assertion that those who oppose gay marriage must be anti-gay sits rather uneasily with the number of openly gay people who either oppose or see no need for gay marriage. I haven't made up my mind on the issue myself - to me no marriage exists apart from the sacramental one, so I don't even view straight civil marriage as a proper marriage (though obviously others will view it precisely as such due to it being recognized in law). So long as no-one is forced to administer sacramental marriage against their will, be it gay or straight, I am sort of open-minded about what the law says about civil gay marriage.
Do you mean that a non-religious person cannot be properly married?
 
J

Johnny Boy

There is a logic to it, you may not agree with it, but logic it is.

If you take it that the only reason for marriage is as a protection for the children of that marriage, then in a situation where there will be no children, why have a marriage?
That would be logical only if the the sole reason for marriage was to protect children, but it isn't by a very long way..........................
 

GDPR

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That would be logical only if the the sole reason for marriage was to protect children, but it isn't by a very long way..........................
But nonetheless it was the sole legal reason for marriage.
 

Glaucon

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Aug 13, 2012
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to me no marriage exists apart from the sacramental one, so I don't even view straight civil marriage as a proper marriage (though obviously others will view it precisely as such due to it being recognized in law).
Marriage is regulated and administered by the state. If the state does not recognize a "sanctified" marriage as valid, then it is legally invalid (such as would be the case if I, by the power of Cronus, declared myself joined to Aphrodite). As such your contention that civil marriage is not marriage is incorrect.
 
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