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Before Judging Others, The Irish Need To Look Closer To Home....


R3volution_R3ady

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 17, 2012
Messages
2,370
Over the last few months I've witnessed this website rip apart other countries economic and social policies, particularly the US (given the year we're in) and their 'backwardness'. The mere fact that the Irish can refer to them as "extremists", "nutjobs" and "backward thinking" is laughable and hypocritical. To those Irish people that see themselves as "progressive", "liberal" and "enlightened" I ask you to look closer to home. Look at your own government and your own society, both past and present, that take or have taken such a staunch socially conservative attitude to almost everything.

Consider that fathers have no rights over their children even though a third of kids are born outside marriage. Consider that a couple must live apart for five years before being eligible for a divorce (divorce was only introduced in 1996 for heavens sake) leaving Ireland as one of the most restrictive countries for divorce laws in the western world. Consider the draconian attitude the Irish take with regards to abortion - yet the Irish howl from the rooftops about the nasty "Right" in America when they say abortion should be available to women when their health is threatened, rape and incest victims. If forbidding a 14-year old rape victim from traveling to Britain for termination is not disgusting enough to make your stomach turn, a woman died in hospital last week after being told "this is a Catholic country". Consider the fact that the Irish have stood by while a government implemented blasphemy laws in 2009 which made us an international joke. Or what about the fact that when the western world were discovering sexual freedom and expression, Irish women looking for contraception were laughed at and ordered to remain in abusive marriages. Consider the fact that the Irish government were frothing at the mouth over a Virgin store selling condoms. Consider that the LGBT community have no marriage rights and that civil partnership was only introduced two years ago. Homosexual couples can't adopt, hell even heterosexuals couples can't adopt. Consider that every child is demanded to learn the Irish language even though a grasp of a foreign dialect is what is needed in todays world of business and would serve them far greater in their lives. If linguistic indoctrination was not enough, we spend more time learning religion in schools than any other OECD country while disregarding science and placing it as a bottom on the priority list. Consider lastly that historically, even though the Irish have riled up in opposition of being deported from foreign lands yet at the same time endorse moves to implement stronger immigration laws at home.

Such a hypocritical bunch? What about tolerating the Catholic churches dominance by enshrining it in the Constitution? Let's just accept the fact that the Irish need to look a bit closer to home before rubbishing other countries and their views. Successive Irish governments make even the "backwards" governments of other countries look like weed smoking hippies. It's not the other countries who are backwards, it seems that the Irish are the backward ones if of course, you are to believe the Irish.
 
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eoghanacht

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 18, 2006
Messages
33,340
You do realise there is no such thing as utopia, all countries have their faults and their strong points. You being Dutch/Chinese(?) might look down on us, as is your want, but that is only your opinion and strictly speaking we Irish are very lucky, we are lucky to be apart of that small minority in the world, white Europeans.

We live in a free democratic society with all that entails. Good health care, education, strongish economies, infrastructure etc etc now compare that to the billions who live in abject poverty with no hope of ever raising themselves out of it.

So yeah, we are far from perfect but relatively speaking we are very,very,very lucky.
 

GDPR

1
Joined
Jul 5, 2008
Messages
224,093
I think your whole argument depends on whether those who criticize others also criticize themselves and I think you will find they do. This site is full of criticism of homegrown greasy fingered gombeens etc. It's impossible to avoid it in fact.

LGBT ''rights'' are not that huge all over the USA either.

As for disregarding science , what about Creationism being taught in schools in Alabama ? Just those two points alone (although there are others) kind of take the wind out of your sails.
 

Cellach

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 8, 2009
Messages
5,094
Consider lastly that historically, even though the Irish have riled up in opposition of being deported from foreign lands yet at the same time endorse moves to implement stronger immigration laws at home.
Historically speaking our immigration laws have become much looser. During the time of the free state when the British handled our immigration pretty much no one got in. It continued in the same vein for quite some time after we started looking after our own borders. It is partially to explain for the relatively homogeneous nature of the state right up to the nineties.

I have no link for this but it can be found in Eunan O'Halpin's Defending Ireland.

Defending Ireland: The Irish State and Its Enemies Since 1922 - Eunan O'Halpin - Google Books
 

Troy_337

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 17, 2012
Messages
614
An Irish man who has a child out of wedlock but doesn’t provide child support should'nt expect further rights in the child’s life. In cases of divorce five years wait time isn’t unreasonable where children are involved.

Given Irish history, abandoning the Irish language is like throwing out the baby with the bath water. It’s good that some Irish people appreciate and treasure Irish culture despite a lack of respect by those who advocate a more global, popular culture that has little to recommend it.

As for hypocrisy, the human brain is hired-wired for it so you better get used to it.
 

Aindriu

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 28, 2007
Messages
8,702
An Irish man who has a child out of wedlock but doesn’t provide child support should'nt expect further rights in the child’s life. In cases of divorce five years wait time isn’t unreasonable where children are involved.

Given Irish history, abandoning the Irish language is like throwing out the baby with the bath water. It’s good that some Irish people appreciate and treasure Irish culture despite a lack of respect by those who advocate a more global, popular culture that has little to recommend it.

As for hypocrisy, the human brain is hired-wired for it so you better get used to it.
The child has a right to have access to their father though.
 

Troy_337

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 17, 2012
Messages
614
The child has a right to have access to their father though.
He[the father] doesn't have the right to corrupt the innocent by refusing to accept responsibility for the child's basic needs. Further, the child becomes a public charge because of the father's refusal to provide support.
 
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R3volution_R3ady

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 17, 2012
Messages
2,370
We live in a free democratic society with all that entails. Good health care, education, strongish economies, infrastructure etc etc
Are you taking the piss?!

I think your whole argument depends on whether those who criticize others also criticize themselves and I think you will find they do. This site is full of criticism of homegrown greasy fingered gombeens etc. It's impossible to avoid it in fact.

LGBT ''rights'' are not that huge all over the USA either.

As for disregarding science , what about Creationism being taught in schools in Alabama ? Just those two points alone (although there are others) kind of take the wind out of your sails.
I think you've lost sight of the topic. The OP didn't state that we should 'become America'. Of course the USA has it's problems (but some posters demonise it without looking at themselves), but I believe we can do better. We have to strive to be the best. As far as the Irish recognising the problems, surely something would have been done about it by now...yet the polls state FF is on the rise again...lol.
 

eoghanacht

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 18, 2006
Messages
33,340
Are you taking the piss?!
No, because as I said relatively speaking if you are a white european you are in a tiny percentage of the worlds population that has a standard of living that has never been experienced by the vast, vast majority of our species ever past, present or future.
 

GDPR

1
Joined
Jul 5, 2008
Messages
224,093
if you are a white european you are in a tiny percentage of the worlds population that has a standard of living that has never been experienced by the vast, vast majority of our species ever past, present or future.
Not if you are Moldovan etc
 

GDPR

1
Joined
Jul 5, 2008
Messages
224,093
I think you've lost sight of the topic. The OP didn't state that we should 'become America'. Of course the USA has it's problems (but some posters demonise it without looking at themselves),
so one cant criticize unless one is perfect ?


yet the polls state FF is on the rise again...lol.

FF being on the rise again is the surest sign that I will emigrate lol.
 

eoghanacht

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 18, 2006
Messages
33,340
Not if you are Moldovan etc

Well I would encompass all white people and relatively speaking we are the lucky ones though I take your point.
 

runwiththewind

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Messages
12,696
What does the OP expect? The country has been run by men since its inception and the one thing men are not is logical and reasonable.

There is no argument here, just look at our history.
 

ballot stuffer

Well-known member
Joined
May 21, 2007
Messages
1,503
All of the above may be true - but the difference is that Ireland as a state doesnt bomb other countries into submission in the name of its democracy.
We don't but we rely on other countries to do it for us. Like it or not we reap the benefits of the foreign policy of our European neighbors and the big bad old US of A.
 

owedtojoy

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 27, 2010
Messages
45,512
Over the last few months I've witnessed this website rip apart other countries economic and social policies, particularly the US (given the year we're in) and their 'backwardness'. The mere fact that the Irish can refer to them as "extremists", "nutjobs" and "backward thinking" is laughable and hypocritical. To those Irish people that see themselves as "progressive", "liberal" and "enlightened" I ask you to look closer to home. Look at your own government and your own society, both past and present, that take or have taken such a staunch socially conservative attitude to almost everything.

Consider that fathers have no rights over their children even though a third of kids are born outside marriage. Consider that a couple must live apart for five years before being eligible for a divorce (divorce was only introduced in 1996 for heavens sake) leaving Ireland as one of the most restrictive countries for divorce laws in the western world. Consider the draconian attitude the Irish take with regards to abortion - yet the Irish howl from the rooftops about the nasty "Right" in America when they say abortion should be available to women when their health is threatened, rape and incest victims. If forbidding a 14-year old rape victim from traveling to Britain for termination is not disgusting enough to make your stomach turn, a woman died in hospital last week after being told "this is a Catholic country". Consider the fact that the Irish have stood by while a government implemented blasphemy laws in 2009 which made us an international joke. Or what about the fact that when the western world were discovering sexual freedom and expression, Irish women looking for contraception were laughed at and ordered to remain in abusive marriages. Consider the fact that the Irish government were frothing at the mouth over a Virgin store selling condoms. Consider that the LGBT community have no marriage rights and that civil partnership was only introduced two years ago. Homosexual couples can't adopt, hell even heterosexuals couples can't adopt. Consider that every child is demanded to learn the Irish language even though a grasp of a foreign dialect is what is needed in todays world of business and would serve them far greater in their lives. If linguistic indoctrination was not enough, we spend more time learning religion in schools than any other OECD country while disregarding science and placing it as a bottom on the priority list. Consider lastly that historically, even though the Irish have riled up in opposition of being deported from foreign lands yet at the same time endorse moves to implement stronger immigration laws at home.

Such a hypocritical bunch? What about tolerating the Catholic churches dominance by enshrining it in the Constitution? Let's just accept the fact that the Irish need to look a bit closer to home before rubbishing other countries and their views. Successive Irish governments make even the "backwards" governments of other countries look like weed smoking hippies. It's not the other countries who are backwards, it seems that the Irish are the backward ones if of course, you are to believe the Irish.
Ireland's history in the history of sexuality is broadly like that of Catholic European countries like Spain, Portugal, Italy, Poland and parts of eastern Europe.

We have not a lot to be proud of, but not a lot to be ashamed of either. Finger pointing and shrieking wild accusations is not going to get you or us very far.
 

The Owl

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 11, 2011
Messages
2,967
You do realise there is no such thing as utopia, all countries have their faults and their strong points. You being Dutch/Chinese(?) might look down on us, as is your want, but that is only your opinion and strictly speaking we Irish are very lucky, we are lucky to be apart of that small minority in the world, white Europeans.

We live in a free democratic society with all that entails. Good health care, education, strongish economies, infrastructure etc etc now compare that to the billions who live in abject poverty with no hope of ever raising themselves out of it.

So yeah, we are far from perfect but relatively speaking we are very,very,very lucky.

Where did you say this country was Eoghanacht? Do I need a visa?
 
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