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Bloody Sunday 1920

Trojanhorse

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Jan 12, 2005
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I was wondering if anyone has the most Up-to date information on Bloody Sunday 1920. I know the basic story but having some done some research on it recently discovered some inaccuracies in the traditional telling.
For instance is anyone aware of any shots being fired from the crowd first that would have made the Auxies fire on the crowd?

Also Michael Hogan, often recorded as the captain of the Tipp team but apparently was not actually.


If anyone has any good info please pass it on or direct me to where I can get reliable sources
 


martin TYRONE

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Scouts in the spectator stand may have fired warning shots that military were aproaching--some say yes others say no and no one really knows

Michael Collins got credit for planning it---he was part of it but it was a joint GHQ decision---Dick Mc Kee did most of the organising---Collins Inteligence dept provided some of the names and addresses but the Dublin Brigade provided most

The killings of the agents were meant to coincide with the sabotaging of Liverpool docks and warehouses,Manchester power plants and London timber yards---The English part of the op was led by Rory O Connor---as a result of Dick Mulcahys office being raided and plans being captured only the Liverpool arson attacks went ahead

A second cousin of Michael Davitt who worked for the dept of agriculture and was in Dublin to buy horses was shot dead having been mistaken for a British agent---

Not all the men were intelligence agents some were just court martial officers
 

Catalpa

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martin TYRONE said:
Scouts in the spectator stand may have fired warning shots that military were aproaching--some say yes others say no and no one really knows

Michael Collins got credit for planning it---he was part of it but it was a joint GHQ decision---Dick Mc Kee did most of the organising---Collins Inteligence dept provided some of the names and addresses but the Dublin Brigade provided most

The killings of the agents were meant to coincide with the sabotaging of Liverpool docks and warehouses,Manchester power plants and London timber yards---The English part of the op was led by Rory O Connor---as a result of Dick Mulcahys office being raided and plans being captured only the Liverpool arson attacks went ahead

A second cousin of Michael Davitt who worked for the dept of agriculture and was in Dublin to buy horses was shot dead having been mistaken for a British agent---

Not all the men were intelligence agents some were just court martial officers
Long overdue a fresh look. I once held in my hand a Mauser carried by one of the Hit Teams that day but the target could not be found! :?
 

PAUL MEYER

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May 14, 2005
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I've been doing some reading about this period in Irish history of late and a guy called Frank Teeling crops up occasionally as a member of "the Squad", if I recall correctly. Anyone know anything about him?
 

False_promises

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Frank Teeling

Frank Teeling was my great-great uncle. Hewas part of the squad of 22 which was sent to assasinate Lieutenant Angliss and Lieutenant Peel. He was wounded in a gun battle with the Auxilaries in the laneway outside the house and captured. He was sentenced to death in Kilmainham but escaped with two others.

In his later life it appears he developed a drinking problem and killed a man-William Johnson. I asked around and none of my living relatives could remember ever being told this but I think it must be true as I have found many sites online stating this.

Frank Teeling - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

merle haggard

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Michael Collins got credit for planning it--
the british and his partisan supporters creditted him with everything under the sun . If you read the actual detailed accounts of the war youll find thats far from the case . His contribution as reagrds military operations was neglible , non existent in his own county - by far the most active - which barely received a single round from him .
 

Clanrickard

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Rocky

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read books written by tom barry and earney o'malley or michael hutchinsons book on the war. many country brigades resented the ghq and often considered some as mere pun pushers , eg richard mulcahy (unfairly). at time ghq could not given general orders or plans, intitatives or goals. many country brigades had to be self sufficent. this carry on is one small example of why certain brigades went to the anti treaty side during the civil war.

people like ginger o'connell and even eoin o'duffy (eeeek - even then he was very dellusioned and enjoyed a high opinion of himself)

no one is trying to derride collins in any way, he had alot going on be it in his position in the irb,ira, volunteers, dail, minister for finance, the loans scheme etc. but meggard is simply saying there were many fine men working under him who dont get the credit they diserve, particularly men like dick mckee - his lost was a heavy one for the dublin brigade
While admitting the problems you list Tom Barry in particular is very complimentary of Collins, Mulcahy and HQ in general.

It wasn’t the type of war where HQ could command things and they didn’t have the resources themselves to give to others. Collins, Mulcahy etc. did most of their work in Dublin, which was obviously crucial to the WOI.

The IRA would never have been successful as it was without the work of HQ and they wouldn’t be as successful without the local commanders (Lynch, Barry, MacEoin etc.) and the brigade’s around the country.
 

Mitsui

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While it's true that many who worked under Collins haven't received the recognition they deserved for it, this was hardly Collins's fault. He himself never stinted praise where he thought it was due, any more than he held back criticism when he thought that was merited.

He was seized on as the public face of the movement and even lionised in Britain at the time of the Treaty talks. His early death cast him in the sort of martyr role the public love - the "Lost Leader". And then the Dublin Brigade made itself pretty unpopular among Republican forces during the Civil War, particularly after Collins was shot, and with the Free State afterwards, so few with that background were going to be hailed as heroes by either of the two sets of hucksters who inherited the shop.
 

Horace Horse

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While it's true that many who worked under Collins haven't received the recognition they deserved for it, this was hardly Collins's fault. He himself never stinted praise where he thought it was due, any more than he held back criticism when he thought that was merited.

He was seized on as the public face of the movement and even lionised in Britain at the time of the Treaty talks. His early death cast him in the sort of martyr role the public love - the "Lost Leader". And then the Dublin Brigade made itself pretty unpopular among Republican forces during the Civil War, particularly after Collins was shot, .

That's inaccurate. The Dublin Brigade went massively anti-Treaty.

I think you are confusing it with the Dubln Guards, which was a mercenary unit raised by the Free Staters, and one that committed dreadful atrocities in the SouthWest.
 

Fr. Fahey

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The Dublin ASU which was responsible for the Bloody Sunday executions and dozens of other executions of British agents nearly went unanimously pro Treaty and provided most of the front line officers in the Civil War hence their unpopularity. Of course my own county Tipp was along with Cork and Dublin the most active in the WOI.
 

Horace Horse

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The Dublin ASU which was responsible for the Bloody Sunday executions and dozens of other executions of British agents nearly went unanimously pro Treaty and provided most of the front line officers in the Civil War hence their unpopularity. Of course my own county Tipp was along with Cork and Dublin the most active in the WOI.
The Dublin Brigade was composed of thousands of men. It went anti-Treaty, by a big margin.

The Collins-centered Squad perhaps not surprisingly stayed loyal to Collins, but please don't try to destroy history by suggesting that they were anything but a minority.

As a Dubliner, and a Republican, I am proud that the Dublin Brigade remained loyal to the Republic established by Pearse and Connolly.
 

Joseph Emmet

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Collins and the others at GHQ did a pretty good job setting up a communications network with the county units that kept the Brits intel to a minimum and shut down many leaks which had cost the Irish dearly in the past. He also held local units to a high standard on secrecy. This caused lots of resentment with local units,especially in Cork & Kerry, that felt they were being overly controlled.
 

Nem

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Mitsui

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That's inaccurate. The Dublin Brigade went massively anti-Treaty.

I think you are confusing it with the Dubln Guards, which was a mercenary unit raised by the Free Staters, and one that committed dreadful atrocities in the SouthWest.
Mercenary? That's a pretty loaded word. They were (or at least the Free State Govt. considered them) regular troops. They seem to have considered themselves a law unto themselves.

But otherwise, yes, you got it - a slip of the keyboard: the 'Dublin Brigade' is a Volunteer/old IRA term. The atrocities of the DG were indeed awful stuff, but the general situation can be replicated any number of times in any number of conflicts in any number of places. Not excusing them by any means, just noting that they were anything but unique in military history. They were sent in as shock troops, and by Gawd they were shocking.
 

merle haggard

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While admitting the problems you list Tom Barry in particular is very complimentary of Collins, Mulcahy and HQ in general.
in what book was this ? in guerilla days in Ireland he pointed out that he told collins to his face if he even thought of selling his Brigade out every man in it would track him to the ends of the earth no matter how long it took . I fail to see how that was a compliment . If I remember correctly he was also deeply resentful of collins using his larger frame to ceaselessly bully smaller built men under the guise of play wrestling , which he thought was plain bullying meant to belittle volunteers who were too afraid to chin him .
It wasn’t the type of war where HQ could command things and they didn’t have the resources themselves to give to others. Collins, Mulcahy etc. did most of their work in Dublin, which was obviously crucial to the WOI.
a war collins threw away and took the enemy camp instead
The IRA would never have been successful as it was without the work of HQ and they wouldn’t be as successful without the local commanders (Lynch, Barry, MacEoin etc.) and the brigade’s around the country.
the ira were defeated by collins and his crew after the british supplied them with tonnes of arms and gave the orders to wipe them out
 

Rocky

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in what book was this ? in guerilla days in Ireland he pointed out that he told collins to his face if he even thought of selling his Brigade out every man in it would track him to the ends of the earth no matter how long it took . I fail to see how that was a compliment . If I remember correctly he was also deeply resentful of collins using his larger frame to ceaselessly bully smaller built men under the guise of play wrestling , which he thought was plain bullying meant to belittle volunteers who were too afraid to chin him .
In Guerilla Days he talks about a trip to Dublin to meet Collins and Mulcahy and speaks quite highly of the work they were doing and both men in general in that part of the book.

a war collins threw away and took the enemy camp instead
****************************************

the ira were defeated by collins and his crew after the british supplied them with tonnes of arms and gave the orders to wipe them out
And ****************************************.
 


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