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Bloody Sunday Killings ''UNLAWFUL''


NMunsterman

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Exactly. Some of us are capable of accepting that all the participants in the conflict were responsible for murders and that furthermore those murders were never endorsed by the ordinary people they claimed to represent., whether British, Unionist or Nationalist. Neither do we feel any need to have a childish conversation about "Who started it". The point is rather that the British and Irish govts, the terrorist factions and the people of N Ireland and Ireland all decided enough was bloody enough, and the GFA was passed. That agreement is now under strain because of Brexit, and the intransigence of the DUP and ERG. So what we must ensure is that whatever happens, the next stage does not involve any return to violence, but a peaceful political process.
"So what we must ensure is that whatever happens, the next stage does not involve any return to violence, but a peaceful political process."
-
Pyewacket


Fair enough. - but let's call a spade a spade here and establish who precisely is trying to undermine the GFA.

The DUP is determined to undermine the GFA as are several senior members of the British Conservative party.

These groups need to be called out and directly challenged.
 


Pyewacket

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"So what we must ensure is that whatever happens, the next stage does not involve any return to violence, but a peaceful political process."
-
Pyewacket


Fair enough. - but let's call a spade a spade here and establish who precisely is trying to undermine the GFA.

The DUP is determined to undermine the GFA as are several senior members of the British Conservative party.

These groups need to be called out and directly challenged.
Did I not call a spade a spade in my post? I didn't say British Labour, the LDs, the SNP, Plaid Cymru, the Greens, the Alliance, the SDLP, the UUP, SF, FG, FF, Irish Labour, or assorted Irish Independents were prepared to undermine the GFA.

I said the DUP and the ERG specifically. You can take the latter to include quondam Tory allies of the ERG such as Michael Gove. All Tories.
 

rainmaker

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That's interesting, and I would agree with that, but what on earth has that got to do with the article I linked to, and the subsequent quote from Dolores Kelly?
An article was linked stating nationalists demand historical investigations and prosecutions of security forces actions during the troubles. I rightly pointed out that for them it's a one way street - With me so far?

Because any call for the prosecution of PIRA members for their atrocities is met with a barrage of responses like 'it would harm the peace process', 'it would damage reconciliation' and the classic, 'there is nothing to be gained from such prosecutions at this stage'.

In reply you linked the SDLP to which I responded that they don't speak for all nationalists.

Then along came Mickey and co to prove my point by telling us that those who bombed Birmingham or shot factory workers Kingsmill etc should be above prosecution because they were heroic freedom fighters.

That's when I rested my case on that particular matter.
 
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Antóin Mac Comháin

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And the songs. Don't forget about the rebel songs:cautious:
They are called ballads. But don't forget singing in support of an evil sectarian terrorist organisation that murdered thousands of your fellow countrymen, in the eyes of the CNR community are not sectarian.
Oh I love reb ballads, it reminds me off how many terrorists we pummelled.
Yes,I guess there are lovely ballads about Loughgall, Drumnakilly and Gibralter.
in fact I know well songs about 2 of those 3 victories.
yes, Drumnakilly, Gibralter an especially Loughgall were poetry in motion.
Loyalist band guilty of playing Famine Song outside church

Thirteen members of a loyalist flute band have been convicted of provocatively playing a sectarian tune outside a Catholic church in Belfast.

A judge ruled that they took part in a rendition of the Famine Song, aggravated by hostility, while marching in a circle at St Patricks Chapel in north Belfast.

This was outrageous and inflammatory behaviour which could have precipitated serious public disorder. - Loyalist band guilty of playing ‘Famine Song’ outside church
Gloating over someone's death like that is disgusting, and if people can't see why it's wrong that says more about them, than it does about people like Seán South.
Like the ballad of Seán South, which is one of my favorites, but which I condemned people for singing, at a GAA match, because it caused offence to the wife of a dead RUC Officer, and because I think it's disgusting to gloat over someones death? :unsure:

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you clearly don't.
 

Antóin Mac Comháin

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As a priest you would know all about that sort of thing.
I don't consider myself to be a devious person by nature, so I think it's only right that I inform you that I've reported your post, because I think there is something profoundly disturbing and sick about people discussing masturbation on a thread of this nature. That goes far beyond 'comedy.'
 

2lazy

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An article was linked stating nationalists demand historical investigations and prosecutions of security forces actions during the troubles. I rightly pointed out that for them it's a one way street - With me so far?

Because any call for the prosecution of PIRA members for their atrocities is met with a barrage of responses like 'it would harm the peace process', 'it would damage reconciliation' and the classic, 'there is nothing to be gained from such prosecutions at this stage'.

In reply you linked the SDLP to which I responded that they don't speak for all nationalists.

Then along came Mickey and co to prove my point by telling us that those who bombed Birmingham or shot factory workers Kingsmill etc should be above prosecution because they were heroic freedom fighters.

That's when I rested my case on that particular matter.

Before you rest your case on prosecutions etc, could you address some facts

How many soldiers have been convicted of murder in the Northern Irish courts?

Four have been convicted of shooting civilians while on duty in circumstances where the courts ruled they were guilty of murder[2] (one murder conviction was overturned on appeal).

All four were freed after just five years of their life sentences through the use of the “Royal Prerogative of Mercy”. All were allowed to re-join the British army

Convicted murderers were allowed to rejoin the army?

YES. No other member of NATO and no other democratic country allows convicted murderers to join, or re-join, its armed forces.

But haven’t republicans and loyalists convicted of murder also been freed under the Good Friday Agreement (GFA) ?

Yes. Prisoners convicted of conflict related offences were granted early release under the GFA. Some had only served a short period of their sentence but a great majority had already served lengthy sentences. Tens of thousands of republicans and loyalists spent time in jails (totalling an estimated 100,000 years). As against four soldiers serving less than five years each.
 

Pyewacket

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Before you rest your case on prosecutions etc, could you address some facts

How many soldiers have been convicted of murder in the Northern Irish courts?

Four have been convicted of shooting civilians while on duty in circumstances where the courts ruled they were guilty of murder[2] (one murder conviction was overturned on appeal).

All four were freed after just five years of their life sentences through the use of the “Royal Prerogative of Mercy”. All were allowed to re-join the British army

Convicted murderers were allowed to rejoin the army?

YES. No other member of NATO and no other democratic country allows convicted murderers to join, or re-join, its armed forces.

But haven’t republicans and loyalists convicted of murder also been freed under the Good Friday Agreement (GFA) ?

Yes. Prisoners convicted of conflict related offences were granted early release under the GFA. Some had only served a short period of their sentence but a great majority had already served lengthy sentences. Tens of thousands of republicans and loyalists spent time in jails (totalling an estimated 100,000 years). As against four soldiers serving less than five years each.
Oh, give it up. The GFA could only be passed because the British govt agreed not to pursue IRA and Loyalist murderers and terrorists. They didn't. Do you want them to do that now?
 

death or glory

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I don't consider myself to be a devious person by nature, so I think it's only right that I inform you that I've reported your post, because I think there is something profoundly disturbing and sick about people discussing masturbation on a thread of this nature. That goes far beyond 'comedy.'
I'm sooo scared.

Would you ever catch a grip and grow up. As if it was something actually worth reporting.
 

Antóin Mac Comháin

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I'm sooo scared.

Would you ever catch a grip and grow up. As if it was something actually worth reporting.
Yikes! You're the one that needs to catch themselves on la'. It's pointless transferring your guilt onto me.

Nationalists say there should be no amnesty for British soldiers

SDLP Policing and Justice spokeswoman Dolores Kelly said those impacted by the Troubles deserve to know the truth.

“The British Government cannot legislate for any amnesty for British armed forces or any other violent perpetrators,” she said.

“Victims and survivors of the Troubles deserve truth and justice."
An article was linked stating nationalists demand historical investigations and prosecutions of security forces actions during the troubles. I rightly pointed out that for them it's a one way street - With me so far?
There's the article above I linked to, again, and the political representative I quoted, again, so no, I'm actually not 'with you so far.'

Because any call for the prosecution of PIRA members for their atrocities is met with a barrage of responses like 'it would harm the peace process', 'it would damage reconciliation' and the classic, 'there is nothing to be gained from such prosecutions at this stage'.

Then along came Mickey and co to prove my point by telling us that those who bombed Birmingham or shot factory workers Kingsmill etc should be above prosecution because they were heroic freedom fighters.
Big difference pal when some AH's attempt to compare state killings with those who fought against invaders, those who repeled attacks by the invader were IMO guilty of no crime.
One mans freedom fighter, is another mans terrorist, so that's really a matter of opinion, but however, there's Mickeymac's solitary contribution. Are you sure that 'barrage of responses', is anything other than a figment of your imagination?

In reply you linked the SDLP to which I responded that they don't speak for all nationalists.
That's fair enough, but I don't recall claiming that they did, nor doing much more than quoting their Justice spokesperson and a link to the article. You seem to have taken issue with who said it, rather than what was said, and Kelly said she was opposed to An Amnesty for all perpetrators of violence, but I'm not a mind-reader and I'm still unaware of what your two-cents is on An Amnesty. I support An Amnesty and always have done, but only for conflict-related incidents which don't constitute War Crimes. I don't regard the soldiers involved in Shoot-To-Kill Military Operations such as the Loughall Ambush as War Criminals per se, but Bloody Sunday, the Ballymurphy Massacre, the Greysteel Massacre, the Loughinisland Massacre, the Miami Showband Massacre, the Dublin and Monaghan Bombings, the Shankill Butcher Attacks, the Seán Graham Bookmakers Massacre, when civilians were deliberately targeted are all straight forward examples of War Crimes.

They might have some credibility except they never seem to like it working both ways, as the recent Birmingham bombing thread showed.

Any mention of investigating, arresting & prosecuting PIRA members for their crimes & the same groups respond with the usual wailing of 'it would harm the peace process', it would reopen old wounds' & 'it would serve no purpose at this stage'.
Are we doubling down on Mickey's solitary post? Whose credibility were you questioning? Who are the usual wailers? Me and Micky or the Relatives-4-Justice?
 
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Antóin Mac Comháin

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Some of us are capable of accepting that all the participants in the conflict were responsible for murders and that furthermore those murders were never endorsed by the ordinary people they claimed to represent., whether British, Unionist or Nationalist.
You are either incapable of accepting that the people murdered on Bloody Sunday and in the Ballymurphy Massacre, weren't participants in the Anglo-Irish Conflict, nor the Irish Civil War, or far more likely, you know in your heart and soul that they weren't.

Neither do we feel any need to have a childish conversation about "Who started it".
Well, give or take a week, 25 years ago a Ceasefire was called by the Provisional Irish Republican Army, which lasted for 3 days, which was followed by another Ceasefire on August 21st of the same year, which lasted for 22 months and 3 weeks, approximately, which was then followed by another Ceasefire which was permanent, which were in turn followed by several other Ceasefire announcements and Press Statements from several different entities who had participated in the Anglo-Irish Conflict and the Irish Civil War, which again, were in turn following on from much earlier Ceasefire announcements by participants in the aforementioned conflict. Thus,in that respect, I agree with the primary thrust of the terminology you have chosen to use, to define the momentous political events which flowed from there, namely, a peaceful political process, as opposed to a peaceful political event.

“I woke this morning to the news that, for the past 30 years, the Irish Government were in possession of a letter from the UVF admitting that they were given the bomb by the British, that murdered the Miami Showband and left me dying in a blood-soaked field. The letter says that MI5 also supplied the UVF with detonators ‘which they had set to explode prematurely’, as happened during the attack on the Miami Showband near Banbridge in 1975.” - Stephen Travers

It's certainly understandable why the British State wouldn't want to have a 'childish conversation' about such trivial matters as 'who threw the first stone' and the escalation of violence, during a period and phase of the Anglo-Irish Conflict in which what was by far the largest Physical Force Republican group had declared a prolonged Ceasefire, all things considered. If T & R was ever going to happen it would have happened 25 years ago.

The point is rather that the British and Irish govts, the terrorist factions and the people of N Ireland and Ireland all decided enough was bloody enough, and the GFA was passed. That agreement is now under strain because of Brexit, and the intransigence of the DUP and ERG. So what we must ensure is that whatever happens, the next stage does not involve any return to violence, but a peaceful political process.
Is it really though? I can't see how it is and I think it's a form of felon-setting by establishment politicians such as An Taoiseach Varadkar, who made the bizarre claim to May, that there is a substantial threat because of it, and it's giving Drew Harris and the Bhoys a license to carry out raids north and south to curtail what is self-evidently a non-existent threat, and to engage in political policing. Don't forget that the DUP were opposed to the GFA, the next time you are trying to occupy the higher moral ground..
 

Pyewacket

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You are either incapable of accepting that the people murdered on Bloody Sunday and in the Ballymurphy Massacre, weren't participants in the Anglo-Irish Conflict, nor the Irish Civil War, or far more likely, you know in your heart and soul that they weren't.



Well, give or take a week, 25 years ago a Ceasefire was called by the Provisional Irish Republican Army, which lasted for 3 days, which was followed by another Ceasefire on August 21st of the same year, which lasted for 22 months and 3 weeks, approximately, which was then followed by another Ceasefire which was permanent, which were in turn followed by several other Ceasefire announcements and Press Statements from several different entities who had participated in the Anglo-Irish Conflict and the Irish Civil War, which again, were in turn following on from much earlier Ceasefire announcements by participants in the aforementioned conflict. Thus,in that respect, I agree with the primary thrust of the terminology you have chosen to use, to define the momentous political events which flowed from there, namely, a peaceful political process, as opposed to a peaceful political event.

“I woke this morning to the news that, for the past 30 years, the Irish Government were in possession of a letter from the UVF admitting that they were given the bomb by the British, that murdered the Miami Showband and left me dying in a blood-soaked field. The letter says that MI5 also supplied the UVF with detonators ‘which they had set to explode prematurely’, as happened during the attack on the Miami Showband near Banbridge in 1975.” - Stephen Travers

It's certainly understandable why the British State wouldn't want to have a 'childish conversation' about such trivial matters as 'who threw the first stone' and the escalation of violence, during a period and phase of the Anglo-Irish Conflict in which what was by far the largest Physical Force Republican group had declared a prolonged Ceasefire, all things considered. If T & R was ever going to happen it would have happened 25 years ago.



Is it really though? I can't see how it is and I think it's a form of felon-setting by establishment politicians such as An Taoiseach Varadkar, who made the bizarre claim to May, that there is a substantial threat because of it, and it's giving Drew Harris and the Bhoys a license to carry out raids north and south to curtail what is self-evidently a non-existent threat, and to engage in political policing. Don't forget that the DUP were opposed to the GFA, the next time you are trying to occupy the higher moral ground..
Word to the wise. Absolutely no one reads your long, boring posts. The whiff of the OCD autodidact is enough to put anyone on their back.

If you care about communication, first understand the posters on here are not your captive lecture audience. They will not read your blather. They don't even read much shorter and more succinct posts.
 

2lazy

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Oh, give it up. The GFA could only be passed because the British govt agreed not to pursue IRA and Loyalist murderers and terrorists. They didn't. Do you want them to do that now?
That's fresh coming from a poster whose grasp of Irish history was gleaned from a BBC documentary in the 80's. Another Free state troll who has no idea what it was like to live in NI during the troubles
 

Pyewacket

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That's fresh coming from a poster whose grasp of Irish history was gleaned from a BBC documentary in the 80's. Another Free state troll who has no idea what it was like to live in NI during the troubles
Goodness, do you think you are Mark Zuckerberg and can tell exactly who I am from my digital footprint?
 

2lazy

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Oh, give it up. The GFA could only be passed because the British govt agreed not to pursue IRA and Loyalist murderers and terrorists. They didn't. Do you want them to do that now?
There was clearly a dispropionate level of justice dispensed for paramilitary murders as opposed to crown force murders- are you disputing that fact
 

Pyewacket

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There was clearly a dispropionate level of justice dispensed for paramilitary murders as opposed to crown force murders- are you disputing that fact
Oh f*uck off. The IRA bombed GB, murdering innocents wholesale, as they did in NI. They were mass murderers, end of.
 

Antóin Mac Comháin

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Nothing new or good will come from picking at these old scabs, but I don't really expect you to understand, never mind accept, that proposition. It would rob you of your raison d'etre.
Considering what you said about the campaigns being undertaken by Relatives-4-Justice, it doesn't surprise me that you've now decided that I'm 'picking at old scabs.'

Some of us are capable of accepting that all the participants in the conflict were responsible for murders and that furthermore those murders were never endorsed by the ordinary people they claimed to represent., whether British, Unionist or Nationalist..
The SDLP do not speak for all Republicans. I was referring to those here and those who come howling out at the mere suggestion of historical prosecutions working both ways.
Hillmanhunter1 said: 'Perhaps I'm being harsh here, but relatives are often the worst. I think everyone of us struggles to find purpose in life, some relatives find that purpose in decades-long "justice" campaigns. Neither is there any new information, or process, or justice to be explored in relation to Blood Sunday. The dead were murdered by British soldiers during a low-intensity civil war.'

2 UK Neo Nazis from the banned National Action jailed - "Yes, I am sure you just wept buckets over the murder of English Labour MP Jo Cox, didn't you. I am also sure you definitely did not rub your hands in glee that one of those 'lefties' finally got what what was coming to them."

Word to the wise. Absolutely no one reads your long, boring posts. The whiff of the OCD autodidact is enough to put anyone on their back.

If you care about communication, first understand the posters on here are not your captive lecture audience. They will not read your blather. They don't even read much shorter and more succinct posts.
I know you've read what were mostly quotes, because you've responded to nearly all of them. Exchanging insults isn't my thing, so I'll leave you to it, but I'll finish with a question. Do you think it would be fair to brand Jo Cox as a participant in the Syrian Civil War?
 

Pyewacket

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Considering what you said about the campaigns being undertaken by Relatives-4-Justice, it doesn't surprise me that you've now decided that I'm 'picking at old scabs.'





Hillmanhunter1 said: 'Perhaps I'm being harsh here, but relatives are often the worst. I think everyone of us struggles to find purpose in life, some relatives find that purpose in decades-long "justice" campaigns. Neither is there any new information, or process, or justice to be explored in relation to Blood Sunday. The dead were murdered by British soldiers during a low-intensity civil war.'

2 UK Neo Nazis from the banned National Action jailed - "Yes, I am sure you just wept buckets over the murder of English Labour MP Jo Cox, didn't you. I am also sure you definitely did not rub your hands in glee that one of those 'lefties' finally got what what was coming to them."



I know you've read what were mostly quotes, because you've responded to nearly all of them. Exchanging insults isn't my thing, so I'll leave you to it, but I'll finish with a question. Do you think it would be fair to brand Jo Cox as a participant in the Syrian Civil War?
I don't think you get the bit about you are TL: DR. It was a simple piece of advice. Xenforo has an answer. Get up to date Daddy-O. :)
 

2lazy

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Goodness, do you think you are Mark Zuckerberg and can tell exactly who I am from my digital footprint?
No but there are the usual red flags - typical subjective nonsense in an attempt to add validity to you argument - typical troll behaviour


"FWIW, as someone who lived through the period"

"by failing even to realise that you are talking to someone who has a much longer and more intimate history with the NI Troubles than you'


That and the fact that you held up a few movies as examples of media impartiality during the conflict.
 

Pyewacket

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No but there are the usual red flags - typical subjective nonsense in an attempt to add validity to you argument - typical troll behaviour


"FWIW, as someone who lived through the period"

"by failing even to realise that you are talking to someone who has a much longer and more intimate history with the NI Troubles than you'


That and the fact that you held up a few movies as examples of media impartiality during the conflict.
Umm I stick to facts. That is what bothers you. Unfortunately, if I may be subjective, I don't care. :)
 

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