Bondholders - What We Need to Know About Their Unrivalled Global Power

onlyasking

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A leading bondholder has stated that he would vote for left-wing governments because they would avoid the worst of the austerity savagery.

Other bondholders, called 'vigilantes', force governments to inflict this savagery.

Q&A: Why Ireland is in trouble | World news | The Guardian

We live in a global lunatic asylum, run by the most crazed but unimaginably wealthy inmates.

We need a new world order, one in which fundamentalist free-market capitalism has been brought to heel, for good.
 


Super8

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We need to make local communities the future. And it has to be done on a global scale meaning we are a world of communities, not nations or corporations.
 

HarshBuzz

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by all means tell the bondholders to feck off

but then we'll need exist on whatever we can earn ourselves. Oh, there goes the welfare state.
 

typical

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by all means tell the bondholders to feck off

but then we'll need exist on whatever we can earn ourselves. Oh, there goes the welfare state.
We can afford a welfare state for the people or a welfare state for the banks, we can't afford a welfare state for both.
 

TradCat

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We can afford a welfare state for the people or a welfare state for the banks, we can't afford a welfare state for both.
Right now we can't afford a welfare state for either and it is the bond markets who keep the show on the road. If the state can live within our means then we don't need them.
 

onlyasking

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Various posters,

I'm not limiting the discussion to Ireland's relationship with the bondholders. This is about how the international 'community' has allowed small groups of unimaginably wealthy people to concentrate within their grasp the power to literally destroy sovereign states in a manner that massive military force cannot.

I realise the Guardian article is a Q&A on our situation, but it also provides answers on the global financial jungle that predominates over practically all of humanity.

These bondholders, in their playing with Ireland, are placing the entire global economic situation in jeopardy, all for profit.

That is simply insane. It cannot be allowed to remain a feature of how the human race goes about its existence. These lunatics must be brought low, and soon.
 

HarshBuzz

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until you can come up with a better system, capitalism is the least worst option

they don't have bondholders in North Korea, I believe Pyongyang is delightful at this time of year
 

HarshBuzz

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and, consider this

who is ultimately responsible for the mess that Ireland has become?

I'll give you two options:

(a) Irish people\government\banks
(b) Bondholders

crying about the bondholders inflicting pain upon us now is like a burgular snivelling about the injustice of being locked up by the cops
 

Squire Allworthy

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There are several parasites that feed on the wealth creating sector. The first we are told is government. Government spends our money. Now many of the services that government provides are needed, but you have to wonder at its involvement in many areas and the efficiency of the services it does provide. Do we get value for money. I don't think so.

Another parasite that gets less attention are those that do nothing but feed off interest and service charges. The ever so clever people who sell financial products and get paid commissions. Again much of this is needed, as it helps lubricate the economy, but some of it is pure alchemy and is badly regulated. For many the cost of raising finance can be prohibitive.

If either of the above become disproportionally large in the overall economy then the burden on the wealth creators becomes too great, their costs escalate and they lose competitive advantage.


I would welcome liberation from unnecessary government interference and other parasites.
 

weathervane

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Various posters...

These bondholders, in their playing with Ireland, are placing the entire global economic situation in jeopardy, all for profit.

That is simply insane. It cannot be allowed to remain a feature of how the human race goes about its existence. These lunatics must be brought low, and soon.
The bondholders are not playing with Ireland. They are simply buying and selling our debt at a price that reflects the likelihood of us not paying them what we've borrowed. The people who played (and still are playing) with Ireland are the politicians who fueled a property bubble in order to pursue an unsustainable fiscal policy of low taxes and high spending and then socialised private losses of various banking institutions rather than allow insolvent banks fail.

Don't blame the bank manager for taking away your credit card when you blow through your limit with no possible means of ultimately paying the bill.

wv
 

Mar Tweedy

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until you can come up with a better system, capitalism is the least worst option

they don't have bondholders in North Korea, I believe Pyongyang is delightful at this time of year
Clearly it is false to present only two alternatives i.e. the savagery of capitalism vs the totalitarianism of North Korea.

It is not an either / or situation.

When people live under any system, it is hard to see that other ways of life can exist. It would be foolish to conclude as a result that other ways of life can't exist.

and, consider this

who is ultimately responsible for the mess that Ireland has become?

I'll give you two options:

(a) Irish people\government\banks
(b) Bondholders

crying about the bondholders inflicting pain upon us now is like a burgular snivelling about the injustice of being locked up by the cops
Think your analogy is off there. A more accurate one is the relationship between a drug dealer and an addict or a casino run by the mafia and an addict who owes them money. Neither addicts are without responsibility for their predicament, but those who supply the addict in the full knowledge that it is unsustainable for the addict aren't without responsibility either. And certainly the families and friends of addicts should not have to be responsible for their debts.
 

Mar Tweedy

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The bondholders are not playing with Ireland. They are simply buying and selling our debt at a price that reflects the likelihood of us not paying them what we've borrowed. The people who played (and still are playing) with Ireland are the politicians who fueled a property bubble in order to pursue an unsustainable fiscal policy of low taxes and high spending and then socialised private losses of various banking institutions rather than allow insolvent banks fail.

Don't blame the bank manager for taking away your credit card when you blow through your limit with no possible means of ultimately paying the bill.

wv
Are you really that naive?

The bondholders are not playing with Ireland? You must be kidding. At this stage we can be sure that plenty in the markets want Ireland to default as they'll have covered their bets with some AAA rated product or other.
 

Tea Party Patriot

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We can afford a welfare state for the people or a welfare state for the banks, we can't afford a welfare state for both.
I am opposed to the bank bailout. But lets face it many of those who were also bailed out were the depositors so please don't forward the argument of bailing out banks without also condeming bailing out depositors.

IMHO neither should have been rewarded for a failed risk.
 

Edo

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The bondholders are not playing with Ireland. They are simply buying and selling our debt at a price that reflects the likelihood of us not paying them what we've borrowed. The people who played (and still are playing) with Ireland are the politicians who fueled a property bubble in order to pursue an unsustainable fiscal policy of low taxes and high spending and then socialised private losses of various banking institutions rather than allow insolvent banks fail.

Don't blame the bank manager for taking away your credit card when you blow through your limit with no possible means of ultimately paying the bill.

wv
Well said - and you can also add in the fact that a majority of the citizens of this country voted for such policies on 3 successive occasions - "Its payback time" 1997 - well its feckin payback time now.

I hold US Treasury bonds,German gov bonds, Swiss gov bonds, Irish prize bonds and Irish gov solidarity bonds - all bought out of my savings and pitiful statuory redundancy payment - ie we are not talkin millions here! - Ive invested here for security and an interest payment as per the coupon concerned.

Am I a global vigilante a la Dr Evil? - sounds kinda cool for a boring moderate FGer to be classed as such!

Get it thru your idiotic heads here - bondholders are people like you and me , our neighbours, friends, work colleagues - they make up a considerable part of peoples pensions and personal investements - whether invested solely or as part of a pension or mutual fund - they have invested their money in these bonds as a means of security and a small return.

The bond market simply reflects what investors think about the ability of Governments to pay back the money they have taken from investors.

Honestly - there needs to be a serious degree of sobering up around this joint and a bit of plain speaking - sometimes I think that P.ie and some kind of fantasy gaming forum get mixed up and interlinked.
 

DaveMc

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Question: Is what is happening in the Irish economy today much different than what happened in Germany in the 1930’s , and are we dealing with the decedents of the same shysters whose economic policies allowed Hitler to attain power?
 

frequency

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Question: Is what is happening in the Irish economy today much different than what happened in Germany in the 1930’s , and are we dealing with the decedents of the same shysters whose economic policies allowed Hitler to attain power?
Allowed or supported and then lost control as Germany was strong enough to stop paying it's interest payments like a good little child of the banking system?
 

onlyasking

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until you can come up with a better system, capitalism is the least worst option
I referred to the need to bring fundamentalist free-market capitalism to heel. The version to which I refer is very much worse than the type of capitalism which has checks and balances and regulations placed on it in order to control the manic greed which is the norm in the deregulated world of Thatcherites and other fundamentalists.

Make no mistake, any system other than capitalism would have every impediment placed in its path by the system which allows small elites to concentrate massive wealth in their paws while millions struggle to survive. These impediments would of course include great violence, death and destruction. The world's elites are never going to willingly embrace greater fairness and equality. They're generally greedy, vindictive bastards. That's part of the reason they're so much more wealthy than almost everyone else. They'll literally stop at nothing for an extra dollar.

they don't have bondholders in North Korea, I believe Pyongyang is delightful at this time of year
A career in comedy awaits.

They're not bailing out bondholders in Canada. I wonder why.
 

onlyasking

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The bondholders are not playing with Ireland. They are simply buying and selling our debt at a price that reflects the likelihood of us not paying them what we've borrowed.
They are engaging in actions that make the likelihood of a default infinitely more likely. Can you explain why that is?

The people who played (and still are playing) with Ireland are the politicians who fueled a property bubble in order to pursue an unsustainable fiscal policy of low taxes and high spending
Oh, I get it. The developers, bankers and other very wealthy backers of the most willing political puppets had nothing to do with our disaster.

As for "high spending", are you asserting that FF/PD govts spent more as a proportion of of GDP/GNP than comparable governments?
 


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