Book of Lismore is kept in UK

B

birthday

Visited Lismore in Waterford during the summer and discovered that the Book of Lismore dating from the 1400s and discovered during alterations to Lismore castle in 1814 was 'transferred' to the Derbyshire home of the Duke of Devonshire in 1930 who is the current owner of Lismore castle.
http://www.routledge-ny.com/ref/middleages/ireland/lismore.pdf
Does anyone know anything about this topic or whether the National Museum ever requested that this manuscript be returned to Ireland. Was permission ever received for its removal in the first place? Was it required even?
 


NapperTandy

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Visited Lismore in Waterford during the summer and discovered that the Book of Lismore dating from the 1400s and discovered during alterations to Lismore castle in 1814 was 'transferred' to the Derbyshire home of the Duke of Devonshire in 1930 who is the current owner of Lismore castle.
http://www.routledge-ny.com/ref/middleages/ireland/lismore.pdf
Does anyone know anything about this topic or whether the National Museum ever requested that this manuscript be returned to Ireland. Was permission ever received for its removal in the first place? Was it required even?
I think it is illegal to remove national treasures from the State. It depends on how this book was classified. Who owns the Book of Lismore?? I would have thought it would have been a major tourist attraction in Waterford.
 

Riadach

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I think it is illegal to remove national treasures from the State. It depends on how this book was classified. Who owns the Book of Lismore?? I would have thought it would have been a major tourist attraction in Waterford.
Unless they like reading Acallam na Senórach or Caithréim Chellacháin Chaisil, I severely doubt they'd have any interest. It's not an illuminated manuscript.
 

Catalpa

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If he bought or acquired it before 1922 then it wasn't 'illegal'.

Loads of Irish material is in England - the Bodleian Library in Oxford is stuffed with it.

There is a lot in the USA too.

Its a pity its with the DOD but I'm sure its well looked after.

Would not be a bad idea to make the Duke and offer he can't refuse though to get it back...:D
 

NapperTandy

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If he bought or acquired it before 1922 then it wasn't 'illegal'.

Loads of Irish material is in England - the Bodleian Library in Oxford is stuffed with it.

There is a lot in the USA too.

Its a pity its with the DOD but I'm sure its well looked after.

Would not be a bad idea to make the Duke and offer he can't refuse though to get it back...:D
Does the National Museum keep an inventory of all the Irish material overseas? They should be actively looking at ways to bring a lot of these treasures back to Ireland. I'm sure they could come to some arrangement with the people who have the treasures in their possession at the moment
 

Catalpa

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Does the National Museum keep an inventory of all the Irish material overseas? They should be actively looking at ways to bring a lot of these treasures back to Ireland. I'm sure they could come to some arrangement with the people who have the treasures in their possession at the moment
I don't know if the NM does but I'm pretty certain that others do for research purposes.

Riadach is the man to ask though.
 

Riadach

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There is a Catalogue of Irish Manuscripts in the British Museum alright. Apparently, in the early days of the state, a lot of Irish material was sold off to provide the state with some liquid assets. A friend of mind has to go to New York to view Irish material from the 18th century. Not sure if much of it is in Irish though.
 

macdarawhitfield

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If he bought or acquired it before 1922 then it wasn't 'illegal'.

Loads of Irish material is in England - the Bodleian Library in Oxford is stuffed with it.

There is a lot in the USA too.

Its a pity its with the DOD but I'm sure its well looked after.

Would not be a bad idea to make the Duke and offer he can't refuse though to get it back...:D
I suppose you could offer him Laois and Offaly.He seems to own most of Munster already,including the best fishing on the Blackwater.Want to fish;you must pay Mr.Cavendish.

Plenty of old Irish Ms in Belgium,Switzerland and Italy too I believe.Raymond le Gros plundered Lismore abbey back in the 1200s,did he not? Anyway who needs the book - won't tourists come to gawp at the Dook and his Royal chum Mr.Guelph?
 

Nem

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There is a Catalogue of Irish Manuscripts in the British Museum alright. Apparently, in the early days of the state, a lot of Irish material was sold off to provide the state with some liquid assets. A friend of mind has to go to New York to view Irish material from the 18th century. Not sure if much of it is in Irish though.
Mixed blessings this. Some material held in the UK deposits is the only pre-1922 documents available because of the the destruction of the IPRO. Both the British Library and National Archives in Kew hold various deposits - note that the manuscripts held in the British Museum were moved to the BL.

The British Library is certainly worth a visit for those with an interest in Irish history. It has a 'Modern Irish Collection here: Modern Irish Collections
 

MMR

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Certainly the book belongs somewhere where it can be properly preserved, accessed and studied. Is it available on line?

Having used the Bodleian at Oxford for years now, and also having access to the rare manuscripts, I have to say - though it might not be popular to say so - they are doing a first rate job of preserving as well as providing outstanding access to these documents. The facilities at Duke Humphreys Library (where the early works can be accressed) are excellent. And yes, there are a lot of Irish manuscripts. The librarians in each of the specialised libraries are real experts, and recently, for example, when I inquired about an obscure passage about an event which took place in Rahan in the 8th century, the librarian I dealt with knew exactly where to find it.

There is also the fact that you can view most of them on line via excellent digital photos and study them with even greater intensity than having "the real thing" in front of you.

People should be provided with the same or similar access to The Book of Lismore.
 

Nem

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Riadach

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Unfortunately it isn't, as I couldn't find it when needing to ascertain whether a reference in Bugge's Caithréim Chellacháin Chaisil was in fact to be found in the earliest iteration of that saga, i.e. Book of Lismore. However, thankfully, Trinity has a facsimile copy of the Book, and I would say most college libraries do as well.
 

former wesleyan

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cruachan

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I was in Lismore Heritage Centre a few weeks ago with my sister and brother in law who were both home from China. There was a 20 min video about Lismore and there is a great history in the small village. Anybody interested in Irish history, it's a must.
 

galteeman

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yeah Heritage centre well worth a visit. Niall Tobin does the narration for the video they play and interestingly shows how the local Waterford accent was heavily influenced by French.
The castle gardens are open to the public but not the Castle itself which is a private holiday home for the Duke....pity as it looks awesome from the outside.
 

seanmacc

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Just don't give it back. :cool:
That's exactly what we should do.

We should play the Brits at their own game. The British museum is full of artefacts they "acquired" over the years. Many of these acquisitions were obtained totally illegally and blatantly stolen and they're totally unapologetic about it.
 


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