BREXIT: the general forum (Second Thread)


Toland

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'orebel

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There's Blinding now...

[video=youtube_share;xwWBZAgqXio]https://youtu.be/xwWBZAgqXio[/video]
Brilliant parting quip:

I can't do any more for you. I'm really sorry. I feel guilty but there's a level of thickness of skull through which I just cannot penetrate. And the fact that you think it's funny how little you understand everything is, in many ways, Brexit in a nutshell.
:roflmao:
 

galteeman

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A second referendum overturning Brexit is the most logical way for the Brits to pull themselves out of the hole they've dug themselves into. However, keeping in mind the clusterfùck of constitutional, politicial, social and economic problems the 2016 referendum caused, it's not a decision to be taken lightly. If it backfires, it will only make a bad situation worse.

The biggest problem is one of political credibility. Blinding and some of the other Brexit fanboys might be off the wall on most things but they're right when they say overturning a popular vote because you didn't like the first outcome will result in serious alienation, particularly among sectors of the population whose faith in the state is already less than the norm. Remember, states operate only by the consent of the governed who agree to limits on individual behaviour in order to protect the common good. You've only to look what went on in the failed statelet north of the Border to see what happens when that breaks down. And when it does break down, it is very difficult to pick up the pieces again.

IMHO, anything less than a substantial margin of victory (say 60%+ to remain in the EU) will cause more problems than it will solve as it will leave a very big minority feeling they've been cheated by the "establishment", "elite", "outside interests", "foreigners" or whatever. That won't go away quickly and its numbers are quite likely to grow again should adverse circumstances like an economic downturn, a terrorist campaign or a major political scandal damage the stability of the status quo.

I'm not yet convinced that there is a sufficiently large Remain majority among the electorate. Despite all the indications to the contrary and the opinions of independent experts, the numbers who believe Britain is better off going it alone remains stubbornly high. We may disagree with them but that's what they believe and that viewpoint has to be at least considered if the entire system of government isn't to break down.

Maybe it will change over the Christmas break should the real implications of a no-deal Brexit dawn on enough of its current supporters. However, the chances of that happening aren't helped by the opportunist bickering, posturing, backstabbing and condescending arrogance of many of the Remainer politicians.
Right there should not be a 2nd referendum or it will go on forever. If the British remain in the EU now on the back of a close 2nd referendum they will do more harm than good.
A proper Brexit should go ahead for the island of Britain and the backstop should apply to NI only. That is the only logical course of action to keep the largest number of people happy.
By insisting the backstop apply to the entire UK Theresa May has jeopardised the chances of an orderly proper Brexit.
Who knows why she did that? Perhaps she was genuinely trying to keep all sides happy but miscalculated on the numbers in parliament. Or was it for purely selfish reasons to keep herself in power and prevent a GE but also miscalculated on the numbers.
Whichever way we look at it May has delivered a piss poor performance once again.
 

robut

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3,500 troops. £2bn to deal with the fallout. They haven't even begun to get to grips with the scale of the disruption they are facing.
[video=youtube;FZeHG4cVPuI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZeHG4cVPuI[/video]

Filmed in Glasgow ..
 

Cai

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A second referendum overturning Brexit is the most logical way for the Brits to pull themselves out of the hole they've dug themselves into. However, keeping in mind the clusterfùck of constitutional, politicial, social and economic problems the 2016 referendum caused, it's not a decision to be taken lightly. If it backfires, it will only make a bad situation worse.

The biggest problem is one of political credibility. Blinding and some of the other Brexit fanboys might be off the wall on most things but they're right when they say overturning a popular vote because you didn't like the first outcome will result in serious alienation, particularly among sectors of the population whose faith in the state is already less than the norm. Remember, states operate only by the consent of the governed who agree to limits on individual behaviour in order to protect the common good. You've only to look what went on in the failed statelet north of the Border to see what happens when that breaks down. And when it does break down, it is very difficult to pick up the pieces again.

IMHO, anything less than a substantial margin of victory (say 60%+ to remain in the EU) will cause more problems than it will solve as it will leave a very big minority feeling they've been cheated by the "establishment", "elite", "outside interests", "foreigners" or whatever. That won't go away quickly and its numbers are quite likely to grow again should adverse circumstances like an economic downturn, a terrorist campaign or a major political scandal damage the stability of the status quo.

I'm not yet convinced that there is a sufficiently large Remain majority among the electorate. Despite all the indications to the contrary and the opinions of independent experts, the numbers who believe Britain is better off going it alone remains stubbornly high. We may disagree with them but that's what they believe and that viewpoint has to be at least considered if the entire system of government isn't to break down.

Maybe it will change over the Christmas break should the real implications of a no-deal Brexit dawn on enough of its current supporters. However, the chances of that happening aren't helped by the opportunist bickering, posturing, backstabbing and condescending arrogance of many of the Remainer politicians.
It won’t be a referendum I’m afraid - it’s going to be a GE.

A referendum would split the Tory party, a GE wouldn’t. A period in opposition would be worth it to avoid that.
 

shiel

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Absolutely. Our political establishment have been bought men for years. Our elections basically boil down to a choice between nodding dog EU yes men A or nodding dog EU yes men B.

When you fill out your ballot paper you can choose

Fianna Fail EU Puppets
Fine Gael EU Puppets
SF EU Puppets
Labour EU Puppets
Ind EU Puppet

and so on..

They should just cut out the shít and give you a ballot with a big picture of Jean Claude Juncker.

That's more honest.. but they're giving us the illusion of independent democracy with the wide array of puppets and marionettes and stooges.
That is just malevolence of the basest kind applied to the union of democracies that make up the EU.

The EU is made up of nearly thirty democracies in a continent which for centuries was torn apart by imperial/totalitarian warfare.

Each democracy signed a treaty to cooperate in matters of mutual interest.

Each has a veto in matters of vital national interest.

Many of these democracies were former colonies.

Is it not ironic, therefore, that in deciding to leave the EU the UK has declared economic war on some of its poorest fellow European neighbours including countries that recently were colonies of the Soviet Union?

Is it not an irony of history that the UK, which less than a century ago governed an empire which contained nearly a quarter of the population of the globe and which was on the winning side in two world wars since, should be complaining about being a member of the EU cooperating with nearly thirty other European democracies?

Is it also not a little ironic that the UK which is a nuclear power and member of NATO, a permanent member of the security council of the UN and has one of the largest and most developed economies in the world should be complaining about cooperating with the democratic countries of the EU nearly all of which have much less power and influence than the UK?

The Brexiteer agenda is dismantling the EU and essentially going back to the attitudes of former centuries in which the powerful imposed their will on the weak.

Are the arguments of the Brexiteers and their arse lickers not indefensible?
 

talkingshop

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It won’t be a referendum I’m afraid - it’s going to be a GE.

A referendum would split the Tory party, a GE wouldn’t. A period in opposition would be worth it to avoid that.
How do you think a GE will happen? Govt. lose VONC?
 

talkingshop

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That is just malevolence of the basest kind applied to the union of democracies that make up the EU.

The EU is made up of nearly thirty democracies in a continent which for centuries was torn apart by imperial/totalitarian warfare.

Each democracy signed a treaty to cooperate in matters of mutual interest.

Each has a veto in matters of vital national interest.

Many of these democracies were former colonies.

Is it not ironic, therefore, that in deciding to leave the EU the UK has declared economic war on some of its poorest fellow European neighbours including countries that recently were colonies of the Soviet Union?

Is it not an irony of history that the UK, which less than a century ago governed an empire which contained nearly a quarter of the population of the globe and which was on the winning side in two world wars since, should be complaining about being a member of the EU cooperating with nearly thirty other European democracies?

Is it also not a little ironic that the UK which is a nuclear power and member of NATO, a permanent member of the security council of the UN and has one of the largest and most developed economies in the world should be complaining about cooperating with the democratic countries of the EU nearly all of which have much less power and influence than the UK?

The Brexiteer agenda is dismantling the EU and essentially going back to the attitudes of former centuries in which the powerful imposed their will on the weak.

Are the arguments of the Brexiteers and their arse lickers indefensible?
Jesus, stop with this, will you! Joining and remaining in the EU is voluntary - no country is actually OBLIGED to stay in the EU.
 

Toland

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FYI

Mentions of the EU in the GFA:

STRAND 1
DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTIONS IN NORTHERN IRELAND
...

31. Terms will be agreed between appropriate Assembly representatives and the Government of the United Kingdom to ensure effective co-ordination and input by Ministers to national policy-making, including on EU issues.

STRAND 2
NORTH/SOUTH MINISTERIAL COUNCIL
...

3. The Council to meet in different formats:

(i) in plenary format twice a year, with Northern Ireland representation led by the First Minister and Deputy First Minister and the Irish Government led by the Taoiseach;

(ii) in specific sectoral formats on a regular and frequent basis with each side represented by the appropriate Minister;

(iii) in an appropriate format to consider institutional or cross-sectoral matters (including in relation to the EU) and to resolve disagreement.

...

17. The Council to consider the European Union dimension of relevant matters, including the implementation of EU policies and programmes and proposals under consideration in the EU framework. Arrangements to be made to ensure that the views of the Council are taken into account and represented appropriately at relevant EU meetings.

...

Areas for North-South co-operation and implementation may include the following:

...
8. Relevant EU Programmes such as SPPR, INTERREG, Leader II and their successors.

...

STRAND THREE
BRITISH-IRISH COUNCIL

...

5. The BIC will exchange information, discuss, consult and use best endeavours to reach agreement on co-operation on matters of mutual interest within the competence of the relevant Administrations. Suitable issues for early discussion in the BIC could include transport links, agricultural issues, environmental issues, cultural issues, health issues, education issues and approaches to EU issues. Suitable arrangements to be made for practical co-operation on agreed policies.

RIGHTS, SAFEGUARDS AND EQUALITY OF OPPORTUNITY

...

United Kingdom Legislation

2. The British Government will complete incorporation into Northern Ireland law of the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR), with direct access to the courts, and remedies for breach of the Convention, including power for the courts to overrule Assembly legislation on grounds of inconsistency.

...


AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND AND THE GOVERNMENT OF IRELAND

...

Wishing to develop still further the unique relationship between their peoples and the close co-operation between their countries as friendly neighbours and as partners in the European Union;

...

And, emm, that's it, as far as my text search can see.

Make of it what you will. My view, though, is that the text certainly assumes the continued membership of the EU of both signatory states.
 

CatullusV

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The EU is good for big businesses and corporations but not for small-to-medium entrepeneurs and businessmen. Too much red tape.

Watch the youtube documentary 'Brexit the movie'. Has all kinds of input from small businesses fed up with EU rules and restrictions.
The company I partly own benefits from trading in many territories. It's pretty small.
 

bonkers

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[video=youtube;FZeHG4cVPuI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZeHG4cVPuI[/video]

Filmed in Glasgow ..
You should put the bit up where the zombies are climbing the wall in Israel. It’s more apt.
 
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