BREXIT: the general forum (Second Thread)


hiding behind a poster

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 8, 2005
Messages
48,013
Very simple - member states do not have freedom in how they invest their own money in, for example, infrastructure. That is just one example, there are many more, and if you are a fan of the EU you must be familiar with them because you are defending them!
But member states chose that position. It wasn't some mythical Big Bad EU.
 

Sailor

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 24, 2009
Messages
56,653
But by that logic, surely the right result is whatever result the people give in the referendum? Presented with a concrete, clear outline of what Brexit is, as distinct from all the contradictions of 2016, they either vote democratically to leave, or to stay. What can possibly be undemocratic about that?
It has never proved possible to have any meaningful airing or discussion of the detailed form something will take in a referendum campaign. It is, by nature, a high level decision to pursue a certain course. But I must point out that you’re prefacing your remarks with the phrase “by that logic” is inappropriate as you immediately proceeded to ignore the logic of what I was suggesting!
 

hiding behind a poster

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 8, 2005
Messages
48,013
I’m sure he’ll vote Blueshirt in the next GE as an expression of gratitude for your support, not that it’ll do you much good.
Idiotic post, doesn't change the fact that you misrepresented him.
 

galteeman

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 6, 2010
Messages
2,300
You're completely out of touch. Refer to page 16 of the pdf doc attached.

https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/024943_b89b42d32364461298ba5fe7867d82e1.pdf

In the event of a hard Brexit,
48% of the sample said they'd vote for a united Ireland while another 7% said they probably would. 38% said they'd definitely vote to remain in the UK while 4% said they probably would. Lucid Talk have quite a record for accuracy, so this poll, taken last December cannot just be ignored.
Didn't you read question 8? If Brexit doesn't go ahead a massive majority want NI to stay in the UK. 60% to 29%.
What does that tell you?
 

shiel

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 14, 2011
Messages
16,802
Heading in the Daily Telegraph.

'Britain will have plenty of scope to cause trouble in Brussels after delay to Brexit'
Pieter Cleppe
Daily Telegraph
 

former wesleyan

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 29, 2009
Messages
25,796
Our government has the engine of a lawnmower and the brakes of a Rolls Royce

Yes Minister.
 

owedtojoy

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 27, 2010
Messages
45,079
Does Teresa May now have the Brexiteers exactly where she wants them?

The defeat of the Benn Amendment for Parliament to take control was so narrow that even the ERG and the DUP realise the tide is running against Hard Brexit. If May's deal is defeated again, the Benn Amendment could pass, and Parliament instruct the Government that they want to remain in the Single Market.

So will Rees-Mogg capitulate and vote for the deal? A few commentators have mentioned that, behind the scenes, the DUP is begging Cox to "clarify" his legal words with some formula to give them space to back the deal.

Laura Kuenssberg, the BBC correspondent, was shaking her head last night - I think she just sees the distance from May to the ERG as unbridgeable. Maybe May can get the DUP on side, and get the roughly 20 or so Labour Brexit votes that are defying Jeremy Corbyn. It may be enough.

After all this time, we still cannot see where this will end.
 

Mickeymac

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 30, 2010
Messages
38,017
But by that logic, surely the right result is whatever result the people give in the referendum? Presented with a concrete, clear outline of what Brexit is, as distinct from all the contradictions of 2016, they either vote democratically to leave, or to stay. What can possibly be undemocratic about that?

In addition to that and further logic, it is surely the sane and sensible decision to give it back to the people as their elected representatives in the HoC are hopelessly divided in all things Brexit.
 

Cnoc a Leassa

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 16, 2012
Messages
1,408
Brexit – A Study in Contrasts
The Brexit process was a concurrent experience for EU, Ireland and Britain

In the case of Ireland, with the Brexit referendum result, DFA led by Charlie Flanagan developed a policy structure around issues and allies that has withstood the test of time. The emphasis was on issues analysis and strategic response policies that were well founded in an accurate assessment of realities and possibilities. Apart from an occasional tactical wobble, the structure has survived intact.

For the EU, similar comments apply.

For Britain, they are no less endowed with people of intellect and diplomatic and political skills and experience and yet they have ended up with a Brexit shambles of extraordinary dimensions.

Their initial analysis of realities and possibilities resulted in a policy structure that lacked coherence. That their initial policy structure was full of contradictions was evident to everyone, including themselves. Their persistence with this incoherent policy structure seemed founded on the belief that they could, by short-term tactical moves, achieve the strategic outcomes they planned. While they did achieve the occasional tactical success, the overall weakness of their strategic choices has led them into an utter and total political and diplomatic shambles.

The only useful explanation for their adoption of incoherent policy choices over several years is that, having spent decades denigrating EU institutions and people, they came to believe that they could tactically outmanoeuvre EU and get their way.

Short term extensions offer no real solution to the situation Britain now finds itself in. A long term extension has even less merit. Like the train wreck that it is, Brexit requires a full reset - annul the Brexit notification, take a break for a few years, let the internal wounds heal, and come back to the issue in a few years time when passions have cooled, perspectives have adjusted and then start with a new Brexit process if that is the political wish. That would be a cool rational decision. Whether Britain can make cool rational decisions is now a fundamental question that only they themselves can answer.
 

belcoo666

Member
Joined
Mar 12, 2019
Messages
55
Brexit – A Study in Contrasts
The Brexit process was a concurrent experience for EU, Ireland and Britain

In the case of Ireland, with the Brexit referendum result, DFA led by Charlie Flanagan developed a policy structure around issues and allies that has withstood the test of time. The emphasis was on issues analysis and strategic response policies that were well founded in an accurate assessment of realities and possibilities. Apart from an occasional tactical wobble, the structure has survived intact.

For the EU, similar comments apply.

For Britain, they are no less endowed with people of intellect and diplomatic and political skills and experience and yet they have ended up with a Brexit shambles of extraordinary dimensions.

Their initial analysis of realities and possibilities resulted in a policy structure that lacked coherence. That their initial policy structure was full of contradictions was evident to everyone, including themselves. Their persistence with this incoherent policy structure seemed founded on the belief that they could, by short-term tactical moves, achieve the strategic outcomes they planned. While they did achieve the occasional tactical success, the overall weakness of their strategic choices has led them into an utter and total political and diplomatic shambles.

The only useful explanation for their adoption of incoherent policy choices over several years is that, having spent decades denigrating EU institutions and people, they came to believe that they could tactically outmanoeuvre EU and get their way.

Short term extensions offer no real solution to the situation Britain now finds itself in. A long term extension has even less merit. Like the train wreck that it is, Brexit requires a full reset - annul the Brexit notification, take a break for a few years, let the internal wounds heal, and come back to the issue in a few years time when passions have cooled, perspectives have adjusted and then start with a new Brexit process if that is the political wish. That would be a cool rational decision. Whether Britain can make cool rational decisions is now a fundamental question that only they themselves can answer.
or in word "arrogance"
 

AhNowStop

Well-known member
Joined
May 23, 2017
Messages
7,835
The European promise, that there would be a winding down of the conflict and the reasons for the conflict, was made in the early seventies with the ascension of Ireland and the UK to the EEC. The UK model was failing in the seventies and its failure in resolving the situation in the North was a symptom of this. This dysfunctional model has resurfaced and been laid bare by Brexit.

The GFA agreement was the culmination of the European promise and this was perfectly well understood by those involved. The promise provided an alternative to serious republicanism south of the border, persuading them to avoid rowing in, given the pressure the nationalist population was under, and a serious escalation happening. The gradualist view of finding a solution that provided for peace, liberty and opportunity was chosen instead.

Triumphalist Unionism recognise the frustration of their dominance that the European institutions insist. That's why they want out of European values and any recourse to the European Court. They want their racket back.

It's important to understand that an abrogation of this promise won't simply be some economic inconveniences. It will be a profound change in the underlying calculus. If there's a hard border in Ireland to preserve a sectarian state then decades of work towards its civilising will be forfeit. It was tried. The Backstop and the conservation of the GFA is utterly required. God forbid its loss
.
"They want their racket back."

Nail on head ... excellent post
 

AhNowStop

Well-known member
Joined
May 23, 2017
Messages
7,835
Very simple - member states do not have freedom in how they invest their own money in, for example, infrastructure. That is just one example, there are many more, and if you are a fan of the EU you must be familiar with them because you are defending them!
You're not explaining yourself very well Sailor and thats not an example ... its a blanket statement.

I asked you why you wanted out of the EU, you said it was to "take back control" .. I ask you "control of what?" .. you said national investment ...

Im still waiting for a proper explanation of what you believe "nations have lost control of" re investment and I would genuinely like some examples please?
 

Marcella

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 8, 2010
Messages
3,706
Does Teresa May now have the Brexiteers exactly where she wants them?

The defeat of the Benn Amendment for Parliament to take control was so narrow that even the ERG and the DUP realise the tide is running against Hard Brexit. If May's deal is defeated again, the Benn Amendment could pass, and Parliament instruct the Government that they want to remain in the Single Market.

So will Rees-Mogg capitulate and vote for the deal? A few commentators have mentioned that, behind the scenes, the DUP is begging Cox to "clarify" his legal words with some formula to give them space to back the deal.

Laura Kuenssberg, the BBC correspondent, was shaking her head last night - I think she just sees the distance from May to the ERG as unbridgeable. Maybe May can get the DUP on side, and get the roughly 20 or so Labour Brexit votes that are defying Jeremy Corbyn. It may be enough.

After all this time, we still cannot see where this will end.
Anyone that thinks the DUP can come on board is simply ignorant of of the history and ethos of the DUP.
 

Sailor

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 24, 2009
Messages
56,653
You're not explaining yourself very well Sailor and thats not an example ... its a blanket statement.

I asked you why you wanted out of the EU, you said it was to "take back control" .. I ask you "control of what?" .. you said national investment ...

Im still waiting for a proper explanation of what you believe "nations have lost control of" re investment and I would genuinely like some examples please?
Control over how to invest their own money - I’m not sure I can make it any simpler!
 

owedtojoy

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 27, 2010
Messages
45,079
Anyone that thinks the DUP can come on board is simply ignorant of of the history and ethos of the DUP.
Dunno.

The DUP released a statement today that they were in "serious and meaningful" discussions with the May Government.

Their friends must have told them they are hanging themselves - May and the Tories will kick them in the teeth as soon as it is feasible, and Rees-Mogg is no different, nor is BoJo. Deep down, all the Tory Leavers think Northern Ireland is a bad investment, a waste of taxpayer's money.

Theresa May gave them a billion pounds of investment, and few Tories will forget what she got in return - zilch. The DUP and the Tories is a marriage of pure convenience, you can forget all about Tories being "the Party of the Union".
 

belcoo666

Member
Joined
Mar 12, 2019
Messages
55
Dunno.

The DUP released a statement today that they were in "serious and meaningful" discussions with the May Government.

Their friends must have told them they are hanging themselves - May and the Tories will kick them in the teeth as soon as it is feasible, and Rees-Mogg is no different, nor is BoJo. Deep down, all the Tory Leavers think Northern Ireland is a bad investment, a waste of taxpayer's money.

Theresa May gave them a billion pounds of investment, and few Tories will forget what she got in return - zilch. The DUP and the Tories is a marriage of pure convenience, you can forget all about Tories being "the Party of the Union".
Most DUP marriages are exactly that .
 
Top