BREXIT: the general forum (Second Thread)


owedtojoy

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Brexit – A Study in Contrasts
The Brexit process was a concurrent experience for EU, Ireland and Britain

In the case of Ireland, with the Brexit referendum result, DFA led by Charlie Flanagan developed a policy structure around issues and allies that has withstood the test of time. The emphasis was on issues analysis and strategic response policies that were well founded in an accurate assessment of realities and possibilities. Apart from an occasional tactical wobble, the structure has survived intact.

For the EU, similar comments apply.

For Britain, they are no less endowed with people of intellect and diplomatic and political skills and experience and yet they have ended up with a Brexit shambles of extraordinary dimensions.

Their initial analysis of realities and possibilities resulted in a policy structure that lacked coherence. That their initial policy structure was full of contradictions was evident to everyone, including themselves. Their persistence with this incoherent policy structure seemed founded on the belief that they could, by short-term tactical moves, achieve the strategic outcomes they planned. While they did achieve the occasional tactical success, the overall weakness of their strategic choices has led them into an utter and total political and diplomatic shambles.

The only useful explanation for their adoption of incoherent policy choices over several years is that, having spent decades denigrating EU institutions and people, they came to believe that they could tactically outmanoeuvre EU and get their way.

Short term extensions offer no real solution to the situation Britain now finds itself in. A long term extension has even less merit. Like the train wreck that it is, Brexit requires a full reset - annul the Brexit notification, take a break for a few years, let the internal wounds heal, and come back to the issue in a few years time when passions have cooled, perspectives have adjusted and then start with a new Brexit process if that is the political wish. That would be a cool rational decision. Whether Britain can make cool rational decisions is now a fundamental question that only they themselves can answer.
Great quote from Chris Bryant to Sky News yesterday "This is like Alice in Wonderland .... except that had laughs"
 

owedtojoy

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Nigel Dodds just on Sky now talking about the DUP - Government talks.

He is neither positive nor negative. Not the "Ulster says NO!" Nigel we know and love so well.

The Chancellor has been in the discussions - another billion into the bottomless Northern Ireland well?

PS He even threw in mention of "our neighbours and friends in the Irish Republic" :unsure: There was a mention of some talking going on in the US while Leo was there.
 

owedtojoy

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Nigel Dodds just on Sky now talking about the DUP - Government talks.

He is neither positive nor negative. Not the "Ulster says NO!" Nigel we know and love so well.

The Chancellor has been in the discussions - another billion into the bottomless Northern Ireland well?

PS He even threw in mention of "our neighbours and friends in the Irish Republic" :unsure: There was a mention of some talking going on in the US while Leo was there.
The pol corrs are very upbeat on Dodds' statement. Sky News corr mentioned hearing of "domestic legislation to allay DUP concerns".

Newton Emerson has been saying for a while that the DUP want to do a deal & support May, and this is probably their final chance.

Still, a long way to go.
 

SPN

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Control over how to invest their own money - I’m not sure I can make it any simpler!
Can you set out your argument?

I don't understand the point you are trying to make?
 

AhNowStop

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Control over how to invest their own money - I’m not sure I can make it any simpler!
oh ffs :rolleyes: ... You keep saying that but when I ask for examples you cant give them ..... am I asking for the impossible here or whats the craic ?
 
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AhNowStop

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Anyone that thinks the DUP can come on board is simply ignorant of of the history and ethos of the DUP.
I know what you mean Marcella but tbf they're under SERIOUS pressure from their support base at home (UFU, All Business & Education & Union groups) .. they realise they've fuked up monumentally this time and its not going to go their way no matter what happens now ... they're currently grasping as straws looking for an "out" and trying desperately to save whatever semblance of "face" they have left ...

a joy to behold "if" this is indeed the case ... if not and they stick to their guns, ah well they'll be an even bigger laughing stock then .. its all good (y)
 
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Mickeymac

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Nigel Dodds just on Sky now talking about the DUP - Government talks.

He is neither positive nor negative. Not the "Ulster says NO!" Nigel we know and love so well.

The Chancellor has been in the discussions - another billion into the bottomless Northern Ireland well?

PS He even threw in mention of "our neighbours and friends in the Irish Republic" :unsure: There was a mention of some talking going on in the US while Leo was there.


I really can't think of anything positive the DUP ever engaged in.
 

AhNowStop

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Can you set out your argument?

I don't understand the point you are trying to make?
Ha, I keep on asking him but no answer has yet been forthcoming ..... and its not as if he's not had time to think of an answer :rolleyes:
 

SPN

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I would have to concur Marcella, given the history of these cavedwellers.
Watch and learn.

The DUP have fooked up royally, and they know it.

The only thing we don't know is how they will achieve their strategic retreat.

But we do know they are working on it.
 

Mickeymac

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I know what you mean Marcella but tbf they're under SERIOUS pressure from their support base at home (UFU, All Business & Education & Union groups) .. they realise they've fuked up monumentally this time and its not going to go their way no matter what happens now ... they're currently grasping as straws looking for an "out" and trying desperately to save whatever semblance of "face" they have left ...

a joy to behold "if" this is indeed the case ... if not and they stick to their guns, ah well they'll be an even bigger laughing stock then .. its all good (y)

I find it very difficult to take them seriously ANS, I believe they are besotted with their 15mins in the limelight and care little, of anything or anyone who pose any threat to their new found prominence in that House of Chaos in London.
 

Mickeymac

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Watch and learn.

The DUP have fooked up royally, and they know it.

The only thing we don't know is how they will achieve their strategic retreat.

But we do know they are working on it.

You give them much more credit than I would ever contemplate SPN, given their negativity in the past and their "efforts" in achieving harmony and peace in such a deeply divided society.
 
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SPN

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You give them much more credit than I would ever contemplate SPN, given their negativity in the past and their "efforts" in achieving harmony and peace in such a deeply divided society.
I'm giving them credit for self preservation.

They are being lacerated by their constituents.

Their pay packets depend on them finding a way out of this.

That's a huge motivation for these boys.
 

Talk Back

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Nigel Dodds just on Sky now talking about the DUP - Government talks.

He is neither positive nor negative. Not the "Ulster says NO!" Nigel we know and love so well.

The Chancellor has been in the discussions - another billion into the bottomless Northern Ireland well?

PS He even threw in mention of "our neighbours and friends in the Irish Republic" :unsure: There was a mention of some talking going on in the US while Leo was there.
What he is is deluded!

The backstop remains.
 

Mickeymac

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I'm giving them credit for self preservation.

They are being lacerated by their constituents.

Their pay packets depend on them finding a way out of this.

That's a huge motivation for these boys.

Not so sure about that SPN, they come across to me as self serving AH's who could not give one or even two about anyone else, especially their constituents, business, farming community, jobs etc etc.....IMO they are political pariahs.
 

owedtojoy

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I'm giving them credit for self preservation.

They are being lacerated by their constituents.

Their pay packets depend on them finding a way out of this.

That's a huge motivation for these boys.
Turned on Tommie Gorman on RTE to see what he thought.

He thinks "They are weighing up when to jump. Maybe next week. But they can only jump once."

He seemed to think the deal was on.

Still hard to see Rees-Mogg and the hardest of the Hard Brexiteers voting for the May deal. For them, ideological purity is more important than practicality. But the numbers might be made up by Labour Brexiteers (of which there are two dozen or so).
 
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shiel

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Turned on Tommie Gorman on RTE to see what he thought.

He thinks "They are weighing up when to jump. Maybe next week. But they can only jump once."

He seemed to think the deal was on.

Still hard to see Rees-Mogg and the hardest of the Hard Brexiteers voting for the May deal. For them, ideological purity is more important than practicality. But the numbers might be made up by Labour Brexiteers (of which there are two dozen or so).

There are things that define Brexiteers. 'Ideological purity' is not one of them.

The EU is a union of nearly thirty European democracies each of which signed a treaty to cooperate in matters of mutual interest.

Brexiteers tore up that treaty and declared economic war.

The Good Friday Agreement was signed between the UK and Ireland.

Together with the visit of the Queen it drew a line under centuries of colonial conflict.

It resulted in good will between the two countries and peoples and the dismantling of all Irish land border controls.

Brexiteers tore up that agreement showing contempt for that goodwill and the free movement of people across the border.

They are now trying to blame everyone else for the consequences.
 

owedtojoy

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There are things that define Brexiteers. 'Ideological purity' is not one of them.

The EU is a union of nearly thirty European democracies each of which signed a treaty to cooperate in matters of mutual interest.

Brexiteers tore up that treaty and declared economic war.

The Good Friday Agreement was signed between the UK and Ireland.

Together with the visit of the Queen it drew a line under centuries of colonial conflict.

It resulted in good will between the two countries and peoples and the dismantling of all Irish land border controls.

Brexiteers tore up that agreement showing contempt for that goodwill and the free movement of people across the border.

They are now trying to blame everyone else for the consequences.
I disagree with that - Rees-Mogg and his crew are the rump of the Thatcherites - their devotion is to small government, corporate-friendliness, austerity for the middle class, low taxes for the rich, , privatized NHS, total deregulation of the workplace, and deregulation of any environmental controls. Most of those are barred by EU membership, and the thrust of Brexit is for a "liberated" neo-liberal economy, very similar to the GOP agenda in the US. Such is their fanaticism, that compromise with the EU is unthinkable.
 

SPN

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Not so sure about that SPN, they come across to me as self serving AH's who could not give one or even two about anyone else, especially their constituents, business, farming community, jobs etc etc.....IMO they are political pariahs.
You are nearly there.

They are indeed self serving AHs.

That is precisely why they are trying to find a way to reverse out of the cul-de-sac they are in.

Opportunity lies elsewhere, and the self serving AH's want to be at that party.
 

Marcella

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Watch and learn.

The DUP have fooked up royally, and they know it.

The only thing we don't know is how they will achieve their strategic retreat.

But we do know they are working on it.
Jim Shannon was on LBC yesterday evening and said in no uncertain terms that regardless of DUP talks with May, he personally would never vote for the wa.

The DUP coming to May’s rescue is for the birds. It’s indicative of Tory cluelessness on the north that they think DUP support is a possibility.
 
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