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BREXIT: the general forum (Second Thread)


Lumpy Talbot

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No
Even the Welsh Dragon of independence is sitting up and sniffing at the air now.

You have to hand it to the Tories. They do deliver a superior sort of constitutional crisis.
 


Mickeymac

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Even the Welsh Dragon of independence is sitting up and sniffing at the air now.

You have to hand it to the Tories. They do deliver a superior sort of constitutional crisis.

Indeed LT, since the vote three years ago I have lost count of the number of posters on various forums, social media etc etc who have expressed the view that the Brexit result would lead to a break-up of the onion........certainly looks very like it at this stage of events.
 

shiel

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Very funny and profound quote on Ireland from a discussion on a Daily Telegraph article.

'Ireland has an odd leader. A cross between Oscar Wilde and Abdul down at the Bengal Spice. Thick as mince too.'
 

wombat

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Very funny and profound quote on Ireland from a discussion on a Daily Telegraph article.

'Ireland has an odd leader. A cross between Oscar Wilde and Abdul down at the Bengal Spice. Thick as mince too.'
Tells you how far the Telegraph has fallen when they publish that rubbish. On the other hand, their football reporters are still worth reading.
 

RasherHash

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The anti-democratic EU...

 

shiel

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Having more lord mayors just repeats the bad decision of retaining the Seanad.

The Seanad should have been got rid of.

That would have meant that we had much the same number of politicians relative to population of many small countries in Europe.

Instead we voted to retain the Seanad because the media and academia supported the retention of a talking shop for themselves and their cronies.

New Lord Mayors will be just the same thing.
 

shiel

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The following quote from an English discussion forum about Brexit tells us that the motivation for Brexit has deep racist roots.

'Six green fields and a loud mouth!!! We should walk away and Ireland will have nowhere buying any of its overpriced second rate goods. Remember the Irish threats once we are out and drive Ireland bust. Close the border and hike their tax.'
 

Crack hoe

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This is a very understandable view point in my opinion. they were never asked!

On a point raised by a poster above. it is impossible for the English to be racist towards the Irish as they are for all purposes the same race of people,
 

firefly123

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This is a very understandable view point in my opinion. they were never asked!

On a point raised by a poster above. it is impossible for the English to be racist towards the Irish as they are for all purposes the same race of people,
Just like the tutsi and hutu I suppose
 

Cai

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He's probably correct insofar as most people probably just want to get rid of the issue. The problem is that most people don't know what the consequences will be for them personally and nobody seems interested in telling them. People know it won't be the end of the world but they don't know the inconvenience it will cause either.
The best way of getting rid of the issue is to remain. All other options will lead to the whole thing dragging on for yonks.
 

Ireniall

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I disagree, the people voted to leave the EU the Tories took it upon themselves ( or elements )to interpret that as a vote to leave the CU and the SM, those questions were not on the ballot, the only question was leave o remain in the EU.
Parliament is divided same as the country the real problem in the UK is there is no majority for anything, certainly not a majority for hard brexit, not a majority for a soft brexit and in 2016 not a majority for remain.
They have 3 options and and no agreement on any of them.

I have said this here before, I think they should go, until they actually do this there is not going to be any end to this, even if a second referendum overturns it they won't stop, so let them try it, if it works off they go to global britain, if not then maybe a year or 2 hopefully less will bring a majority to their senses and they can do a deal or apply to rejoin.
I wouldn't argue with any of that but I think that if they leave there will be no coming back. I agree also that it might be better for us all that they would go. The reason that I found that guy interesting was that he found something in royal history to explain what was happening today -a century after universal suffrage. I have always dismissed royal history as a kind of prehistory before real history started when the people started to exert their influence. Perhaps I need to think again.

I think that he is much too much of a royalist but nonetheless has some interesting points. He seems to be suggesting that English history(he dismisses the Celtic fringe as 'bells and whistles') is such that they will never be capable of any in depth alliance with any outside power. It could be that if you are a bicycle it may be of little consequence what bells and whistles you have but if you are a bell or a whistle it is of primary importance what bicycle you are attached to.. In any case if he is right about this then the sooner they are ejected from the EU the better and the bells and whistles could begin the period of appraisal which must follow because this is not a temporary hiccup. This has a permanent path written all over it.

He also said that change comes from the top -not the bottom. In that regard I believe him to be correct as I think that the vast majority are largely indifferent to politics if the circumstances of the country that they live in allows this luxury. In fact it is quite plain that the whole EU project has been driven from the top with little enough enthusiasm from the electorates
The doctrine of parliamentary sovereignty as a root of normalcy has been exposed as a sham, and it wouldn't take anyone terribly smart to wonder 'is that all you've got!'. Any rational constitutional lawyer would be able to come up with something much greater on the back of a fag packet at a moments notice.

They've been trailing this example of British exceptionalism for centuries now as if it's one of the 39 tenets of the Church of England and the moment it's needed, it crumbles.

Why does it crumble? because no bad actors were assumed.

'Why, whatever do we do if we have those?'

'No idea.'

Fair doos to Bercow at least, for following the regulations that were entrusted to him, although sooner would have been better.
Yes -however much he enjoyed the drama I thought that Bercow was right to stop the continued and increasingly disrespectful re-presentation of the WA to parliament. I take your point about the primacy of parliament onto which occasional referenda have been stitched with little thought for the potential consequences. But for me this might work were it not for the FPTP voting system which operates in GEs.

The trouble with this system is that there are two primary parties produced which are quite left and right of centre while the middle ground is made to seem like an insipid irrelevance. The two primary parties are prevented from moving to the middle ground by subgroups like the ERG and Militant Tendency which the system prevents from forming their own parties so that they are forced to take over the established party from the inside instead. Obviously it is normally the case that only one of the main parties is going through some sort of internal paroxysm at any given time but the Brexit referendum marked the completion of a double whammy and a perfect storm for the system which as you say, is particularly unsuited to deal with it.

To make matters worse the recourse to occasional referenda is still not entirely accepted in the political culture of the country and the remnants of this reluctance are combining with Brexiteers partiality in support of their great Brexit breakthrough in 2016 to, so far ,stop this route towards an unblocking of the system. It is most unfortunate that a referendum is acceptable enough to land the country in a dire political stalemate but is not accepted as a method to relieve the situation. And now Farage is back. He's like the guy who's great at interviews but totally useless at actually doing the job. He's irresistible to the public but once put into position has nothing to offer except continued trouble and strife.
 

Ireniall

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I disagree, the people voted to leave the EU the Tories took it upon themselves ( or elements )to interpret that as a vote to leave the CU and the SM, those questions were not on the ballot, the only question was leave o remain in the EU.
Parliament is divided same as the country the real problem in the UK is there is no majority for anything, certainly not a majority for hard brexit, not a majority for a soft brexit and in 2016 not a majority for remain.
They have 3 options and and no agreement on any of them.

I have said this here before, I think they should go, until they actually do this there is not going to be any end to this, even if a second referendum overturns it they won't stop, so let them try it, if it works off they go to global britain, if not then maybe a year or 2 hopefully less will bring a majority to their senses and they can do a deal or apply to rejoin.
Yes. The reality is that the people voted for the laughably deluded version of Brexit which the Brexiteers , with unprecedented dishonesty, presented as probable. This deluded version is the only Brexit that might make any kind of objective sense if it was available. The only other type of Brexit which makes internal sense is no deal as at least it is Brexit and while it is clearly very damaging it can be argued , however incredibly, that it represents an opportunity. Unfortunately , in the circumstances, the only Brexit that definitely makes no sense whatsoever is a soft Brexit in which the UK is demoted to being a rule taker while being forced to adhere to most of the EUs controls.

Having successfully won a referendum with their lies it comes as no surprise now that Brexiteers are resorting to further dishonesty to deflect attention from the fact that they have brought their country to such a damaging impasse. Ignoring the fact that the people voted for Brexit with all of the cherries they have now accepted that there are no cherries at all but are still insisting that the British people voted for the now cherry-less Brexit anyway. Just a ridiculous position to take but these destructive type of people -benefiting from a kind of blind spot that many people have, are not being held to account by the electorate as the continued popularity of prominent Brexiteers, who've made the most idiotic and inaccurate interventions, indicates. While nothing that these people say should come as a surprise I think that Ann Widdecombes re-assurance that no deal Brexit would not be nearly as bad as what Britain suffered during the war takes the absolute biscuit and would be laughed out of court in any normal political climate
 

Ireniall

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The anti-democratic EU...

Godawful thrash and cliched ,regurgitated semi digested spewings. The EU is not a country. People in general do not want it to become a country. People who don't like the EU definitely don't want it to become a country. The fact that it is not a country means that its institutions are weaker so that the European Parliament, his very first example, has no actual power. Imagine the screeching from this idiot if it had. The good news is that eurosceptics are such a bunch of unimaginative drones
 

RasherHash

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Godawful thrash and cliched ,regurgitated semi digested spewings. The EU is not a country. People in general do not want it to become a country. People who don't like the EU definitely don't want it to become a country. The fact that it is not a country means that its institutions are weaker so that the European Parliament, his very first example, has no actual power. Imagine the screeching from this idiot if it had. The good news is that eurosceptics are such a bunch of unimaginative drones
There's little doubt the EU elite want it to become their empire with their own imperial army, and fg are infamous for their servility in the face of their bullying masters.
 

Ireniall

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There's little doubt the EU elite want it to become their empire with their own imperial army, and fg are infamous for their servility in the face of their bullying masters.
Well the Fianna Failer Martin Mansergh ,in a recent interview, begs to differ. He pointed out that, reflecting the fact that it is not a country, the EU has a tiny budget. He said that a federal EU would require enormous transfers of money from the contributing countries to the EU central government as it would be in the case of federation. He didn't need to add that no country would be on for that and that federation is a total non-starter or is so long term as to be of no immediate relevance to us.
 

RasherHash

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Well the Fianna Failer Martin Mansergh ,in a recent interview, begs to differ. He pointed out that, reflecting the fact that it is not a country, the EU has a tiny budget. He said that a federal EU would require enormous transfers of money from the contributing countries to the EU central government as it would be in the case of federation. He didn't need to add that no country would be on for that and that federation is a total non-starter or is so long term as to be of no immediate relevance to us.
If that is the case then they'd want to man up and tell the elitists, Merkel gave a speech recently about how she, Juncker, Tusk ET Al are salivating at the thoughts of an EU army.
 

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