Brilliant, very important Article - "The Dying Art of Disagreement" - Your thoughts please once you have read it!

robut

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Brilliant, very important Article - "The Dying Art of Disagreement" - Your thoughts please once you have read it!

The Dying Art of Disagreement

The title of my talk tonight is “The Dying Art of Disagreement.” This is a subject that is dear to me — literally dear — since disagreement is the way in which I have always earned a living. Disagreement is dear to me, too, because it is the most vital ingredient of any decent society.

To say the words, “I agree” — whether it’s agreeing to join an organization, or submit to a political authority, or subscribe to a religious faith — may be the basis of every community.

But to say, I disagree; I refuse; you’re wrong; etiam si omnes — ego non — these are the words that define our individuality, give us our freedom, enjoin our tolerance, enlarge our perspectives, seize our attention, energize our progress, make our democracies real, and give hope and courage to oppressed people everywhere.

This article is thought provoking, Frightening, very true and very topical .. in my opinion :D .. but I think many here will also find it as I did .. Screaming out AT LAST. Throughout the article i said so many times he has hit the nail on its head.

I COULD HAVE QUOTED MOST OF THE ARTICLE, BUT i DID NOT :d .. So please read it all .. and then I look forward to your thoughts and opinions on this ..

** The comments over right of article are worth a read also. they are thought provoking too!

The Author - https://www.facebook.com/BretStephensNYT/
 
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GDPR

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The media ceased putting any money into "aggressive and objective news reporting" a loooong time ago. it doesnt fit their business model.

When some do, they are written off as "My facts are better than yours - I paid nothing for them, I got them from my favourite website."

The rest of the speech is just whining about campus politics. Guess what, there never was a Golden Age at US universities.
 

robut

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The media ceased putting any money into "aggressive and objective news reporting" a loooong time ago. it doesnt fit their business model.

When some do, they are written off as "My facts are better than yours - I paid nothing for them, I got them from my favourite website."

The rest of the speech is just whining about campus politics. Guess what, there never was a Golden Age at US universities.
I would disagree .. In amongst the "Whining" is some very good points as to why we find ourselves in this morass today. Shutting down speech if people disagree. The identity politics stuff etc.

Its from these colleges & education systems that this is perculating out into wider society? Same as here in Ireland one could argue?

Recently i saw someone saying ( that Newstalk guy who posted here? ) that the Journalism courses in DCU were tantamount to left leaning madrassas. And not the first time I heard this from other media people
 
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GDPR

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I would disagree .. In amongst the "Whining" is some very good points as to why we find ourselves in this morass today. Shutting down speech if people disagree. The identity politics stuff etc.

Its from these colleges & education systems that this is perculating out into wider society? Same as here in Ireland one could argue?

Recently i saw someone saying the Journalism courses in DCU were tantamount to extreme left leaning madrassas. And not the first time I heard this
Oh FGS, you guys are obsessed with the media when it is just another business, and always was. From time to time, great newspapers and editors did break great stories, but never forget they started as blackmail/tattle rags. The Yellow Press was the bane of c19 democracy in Europe and the US.

Universities are not responsible for the corruption of political discourse. They never were and are not now. However they werent Ivory Towers of pure intellectual analysis at any point either.

Give me one f*ucking example. Back in the 40s and 50s, Harvard Men, the brightest and the best, took the US into a trajectory which led to Vietnam.

Get some historical perspective.
 

talkingshop

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The Dying Art of Disagreement




This article is thought provoking, Frightening, very true and very topical .. in my opinion :D .. but I think many here will also find it as I did .. Screaming out AT LAST. Throughout the article i said so many times he has hit the nail on its head.

I COULD HAVE QUOTED MOST OF THE ARTICLE, BUT i DID NOT :d .. So please read it all .. and then I look forward to your thoughts and opinions on this ..

The Author - https://www.facebook.com/BretStephensNYT/
Yeah, good article, pretty much all true, and most of it has been said before. In relation to the media, I thought he left the mainstream, supposedly quality, media off the hook a bit - he was quick to mention the bias of Fox News for instance, but didn't mention the bias of CNN. What we need are more media outlets that are fair, unbiased, and not pushing any particular agenda, but are prepared to print/publish a variety of views in an unbiased way.
 

robut

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Yeah, good article, pretty much all true, and most of it has been said before. In relation to the media, I thought he left the mainstream, supposedly quality, media off the hook a bit - he was quick to mention the bias of Fox News for instance, but didn't mention the bias of CNN. What we need are more media outlets that are fair, unbiased, and not pushing any particular agenda, but are prepared to print/publish a variety of views in an unbiased way.
Although he did say this:

BBC. It too, suffers, from its own form of ideological conformism and journalistic groupthink, immunized from criticism due to its indifference to competition.
Indeed I realise it has been all said before, but nice to see it all in one place and worded very well ( I think :D )
 

GDPR

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Although he did say this:
Well then he is talking through his hat.

The BBC has been semi-privatised since the mid-90s and is extremely vulnerable to all forms of pressure - political, commercial and internal.

There is no BBC group-think. There are only people trying to hold on to a job which will likely disappear shortly.

The govt can fillet DGs. They kicked out Alasdair Milne, they kicked out Greg Dyke. One was a victim of a Tory govt, the other of a Labour one.

You guys are just making stuff up as usual.
 

robut

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From the comments:

William F. Buckley, Jr.'s, quote seems more relevant than ever:

“Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views."

The difference is that today liberals are not "shocked" but hostile and intransigent.
 

GDPR

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Well there you go - you dont want comments and responses to your OP that dont agree there is a powerful liberal group-think in the media, which is devoted to promoting identity politics.

The media doesnt work like that. It is a low-wage, low-security, low-value occupation, except for certain super-stars. Much like the entertainment industry.

At least be honest robut.
 

talkingshop

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Did Robut say anywhere that he didn't want particular comments or responses to his OP? :roll:
 

robut

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Well there you go - you dont want comments and responses to your OP that dont agree there is a powerful liberal group-think in the media, which is devoted to promoting identity politics.

The media doesnt work like that. It is a low-wage, low-security, low-value occupation, except for certain super-stars. Much like the entertainment industry.

At least be honest robut.
Jeez Eagle .. where the hell did I say that? Where have I stopped comments on this thread or shouted them down?

In this case you are making assumptions about me?

Work away .. say what you wish. However what you say is YOUR OPINION, not fact ( As is the case with me & all others)?

I commented on your first post disagreeing with you, not stopping you from comment .. thats the whole point of this thread and of Forums like PIE ..

I actually do think there is a left leaning, very "liberal group-think in the media" .. not necessarily powerful, but maybe so.

Media has got lazy in my opinion .. its all about the Click bait now and also about following the IN crowd and to be seen to do so.

Also media in social media posting articles with deliberately ( ?? ) engineered headlines that in alot of cases are far away from the meat and bones of the article itself. WHY? To draw the comments on the HEADLINE ONLY .. because they know people couldnt be ars*d clicking on the article and actually reading it??
 
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talkingshop

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Jeez Eagle .. where the hell did I say that? Where have I stopped comments on this thread or shouted them down?

In this case you are making assumptions about me?

Work away .. say what you wish. I actually do think there is a left leaning, "very liberal group-think in the media" .. not necessarily powerful, but maybe so.

Media has got lazy in my opinion .. its all about the Click bait now and also about following the IN crowd and to be seen to do so.
Yep. Obviously on the "progressive" - "conservative" axis the population have a whole range of views ranging from the very "conservative" end of things to the very "progressive" end of things. A decent media organ in my view would place itself somewhere in the middle, and acknowledge the whole range of views on the various issues and allow discussion of these issues. But by and large the MSM are entirely at the very "progressive" end, and in fact view it as their mission to get "progressive" causes implemented (abortion, gay marriage, multiculturalism...etc.).
 

robut

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Yep. Obviously on the "progressive" - "conservative" axis the population have a whole range of views ranging from the very "conservative" end of things to the very "progressive" end of things. A decent media organ in my view would place itself somewhere in the middle, and acknowledge the whole range of views on the various issues and allow discussion of these issues. But by and large the MSM are entirely at the very "progressive" end, and in fact view it as their mission to get "progressive" causes implemented (abortion, gay marriage, multiculturalism...etc.).
At the risk of incurring further wrath from Eagle :D .. i agree with all of what you said there TS ..
 

former wesleyan

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“Harvard’s idea of diversity is for everyone to look different and think alike.”

Tom Holland.
 

venusian

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The Dying Art of Disagreement




This article is thought provoking, Frightening, very true and very topical .. in my opinion :D .. but I think many here will also find it as I did .. Screaming out AT LAST. Throughout the article i said so many times he has hit the nail on its head.

I COULD HAVE QUOTED MOST OF THE ARTICLE, BUT i DID NOT :d .. So please read it all .. and then I look forward to your thoughts and opinions on this ..

** The comments over right of article are worth a read also. they are thought provoking too!

The Author - https://www.facebook.com/BretStephensNYT/
Sez it all really!
[video=youtube;wxrbOVeRonQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxrbOVeRonQ[/video]
 

SideysGhost

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You guys are just making stuff up as usual.
I'm utterly bored with this alt-reality hysterical aggrieved man-toddler WingNut horseshyte now. It's all over the internet in every (Anglophone at least) country and they all sound exactly the same. The exact same 10 or so catch-phrases, dog-whistles and cliches endlessly regurgitated. It's impossible to tell the difference between the posts of any of a dozen or more bitter snarling Trumpettes on here, every post is identically bovine.

And all the conspiraloon nonsense about shadowy left-wing media conspiracies, when it is obvious that, to these cretins, anyone even slightly more sane than Pinochet is a full-on Communist subversive. And obvious to everyone else that most MSM is in fact, by any sane measure, largely centre-right and corporate-friendly. It's nonsense, but worse than that it is Boring and Stupid nonsense.

And the way they screech about "identity politics" and "SJWs" when 90% of the content of their posts is hysterical "save White Christian Men from the gheys, de wimmins, de colourds and dem islamics". Identity politics at their purest.

Just the online anonymous howling of socially-inept losers. Arsebiscuits, not worth my time.
 

caledhel

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Good article written to appeal to those on the left as words of advice.

Not being able to bear a contrary position indicates a lack of confidence in one's own and hints at a desperate clinging to views that give one a feeling of security. That and a lack of fitness to be a part of the debate.

There's a tragic side to it too both for the people missing out on genuine discussion and from unworthy elements who sieze on the clamor to release the darker angels of human nature from the cells of human civilisation.

Worth a read.
 

between the bridges

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The Dying Art of Disagreement




This article is thought provoking, Frightening, very true and very topical .. in my opinion :D .. but I think many here will also find it as I did .. Screaming out AT LAST. Throughout the article i said so many times he has hit the nail on its head.

I COULD HAVE QUOTED MOST OF THE ARTICLE, BUT i DID NOT :d .. So please read it all .. and then I look forward to your thoughts and opinions on this ..

** The comments over right of article are worth a read also. they are thought provoking too!

The Author - https://www.facebook.com/BretStephensNYT/
Bollox...
 

caledhel

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Bollox...
You should read down the article and bit.

The first part establishes credibility with the audience, the substance comes especially in a few paragraphs that begin with the observation that "In other words, to disagree well you must first understand well".

That's respect, not automatic agreement but the effort to understand the contrary position and the willingness to be persuaded by the stronger argument.
 


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