Britain has no "selfish, strategic or economic interest" in Northern Ireland

Roll_On

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If May hadn't of shot herself in the foot by calling an election for absolutely no reason at all, inadvertently putting the DUP into centre stage of UK politics, I would say her speech the other day would have been very different. More like 'yeah customs border down the Irish Sea that's just peachy'.

Now she's in a right tangle, the DUP on one side, Ireland/EU on the other.

The UK has minus strategic interest in NI. They did in 1920s in terms of ship building, heavy industry and politics at the time meant they had to be seen carving up places all over the world India most notably. Their only interest in NI at the minute is the confidence and supply arrangement with the DUP. They're most likely trying to get the DUPers as drunk as is humanly possible at the minute, lorries full of tenants.
 


DJP

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I became intrigued by (what I assume to be) the thrust of this topic when I detected a peculiar language difference.

On one side (the one nearer my point of view) the term was "Good Friday Agreement". However, those who were critical (the Rees-Mogg and Catharine Letitia Hoey types) were preferring "Belfast Agreement". Quite why this divergence has become so obvious is beyond me.

Then, yesterday in #PMQs, Prime Minister May went categorical:

Forgive me: that surely is a gross over-statement.

As early as 19 May 1916 (i.e. in the aftermath of the Easter Rising), Lloyd George was negotiating behind the scenes to do precisely what Mrs May says is impossible. On that date he wrote to T.P.O’Connor:

George wasn't PM at that moment: quite correct. But he would seem to have the consensus of the Cabinet to make that proposal.

Sure enough, when Lloyd George, by now Prime Minister in the post-Coupon Election ‘Coalition’, defined what his idea of ‘Home Rule’ amounted to:

If that doesn't amount to changing the constitutional integrity of the UK, what does it imply?

When it came to establishing parameters for the 1921 Treaty, we have Lloyd George and de Valera head-to-head in four meetings between 14 and 24 July 1921:

And that — largely — is what went into the Treaty. But notice the 'Free Trade area' (which has a significance at the present moment), and — watch this space — 'no coercion'.

Time and tides moved on. Until we arrive at June 1940:

The 'coercion' in all that is blindingly obvious:
  • Craig, PM of NI, and his about-to-be successor, Andrews, were each convinced matters were happening 'behind his back', and they were fully justified;
  • Westminster was severely disgruntled about the lack of defence provisions and civilian protection being undertaken by the Stormont régime (indeed, wholly disenchanted with the Unionist governance of the Six Counties);
  • we know from Mackenzie King's Diaries he had conversations with Malcolm MacDonald (now Governor-General of Canada) which made explicit that MacDonald had plenipotentiary powers to offer de Valera much more, with solid promises of reunification.
Which adds a further dimension to 8 December 1941. Immediately on the news of Pearl Harbor, Churchill telegrammed de Valera:

[British representative in Dublin] Maffey was told to deliver that message immediately. At 2 am he went to de Valera’s private residence. The precise intent of Churchill’s message is one for the dialectitians. Still, it clearly invites comparison with the June 1940 approach. I read it as a clear suggestion that Churchill (Churchill of all people!) was prepared to sell out the Six Counties.

So much for the notion: no UK Prime Minister could ever agree to it.
If the Conservatives weren't dependent on the 10 DUP votes in Westminister I am quite sure that the Government there would have accepted the latest, and indeed the first in December, plan by the EU on the North.
 

Ireniall

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I became intrigued by (what I assume to be) the thrust of this topic when I detected a peculiar language difference.

On one side (the one nearer my point of view) the term was "Good Friday Agreement". However, those who were critical (the Rees-Mogg and Catharine Letitia Hoey types) were preferring "Belfast Agreement". Quite why this divergence has become so obvious is beyond me.

Then, yesterday in #PMQs, Prime Minister May went categorical:

Forgive me: that surely is a gross over-statement.

As early as 19 May 1916 (i.e. in the aftermath of the Easter Rising), Lloyd George was negotiating behind the scenes to do precisely what Mrs May says is impossible. On that date he wrote to T.P.O’Connor:

George wasn't PM at that moment: quite correct. But he would seem to have the consensus of the Cabinet to make that proposal.

Sure enough, when Lloyd George, by now Prime Minister in the post-Coupon Election ‘Coalition’, defined what his idea of ‘Home Rule’ amounted to:

If that doesn't amount to changing the constitutional integrity of the UK, what does it imply?

When it came to establishing parameters for the 1921 Treaty, we have Lloyd George and de Valera head-to-head in four meetings between 14 and 24 July 1921:

And that — largely — is what went into the Treaty. But notice the 'Free Trade area' (which has a significance at the present moment), and — watch this space — 'no coercion'.

Time and tides moved on. Until we arrive at June 1940:

The 'coercion' in all that is blindingly obvious:
  • Craig, PM of NI, and his about-to-be successor, Andrews, were each convinced matters were happening 'behind his back', and they were fully justified;
  • Westminster was severely disgruntled about the lack of defence provisions and civilian protection being undertaken by the Stormont régime (indeed, wholly disenchanted with the Unionist governance of the Six Counties);
  • we know from Mackenzie King's Diaries he had conversations with Malcolm MacDonald (now Governor-General of Canada) which made explicit that MacDonald had plenipotentiary powers to offer de Valera much more, with solid promises of reunification.
Which adds a further dimension to 8 December 1941. Immediately on the news of Pearl Harbor, Churchill telegrammed de Valera:

[British representative in Dublin] Maffey was told to deliver that message immediately. At 2 am he went to de Valera’s private residence. The precise intent of Churchill’s message is one for the dialectitians. Still, it clearly invites comparison with the June 1940 approach. I read it as a clear suggestion that Churchill (Churchill of all people!) was prepared to sell out the Six Counties.

So much for the notion: no UK Prime Minister could ever agree to it.
Yes- all of this and an open border in Ireland for people while there were checks entering GB from both parts of Ireland. It's plain that if the circumstances are right a prime minister will contemplate such measures without a second thought.
 

midlander12

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If the Conservatives weren't dependent on the 10 DUP votes in Westminister I am quite sure that the Government there would have accepted the latest, and indeed the first in December, plan by the EU on the North.
Yep, and the fact is they did actually accept the December draft, whether they like it or not.

The whole 'debate' is unbearable to listen to - whether it's cock-eyed Brexiteers like Rees-Mogg rabbitting on about imaginary free trade deals, or equally tedious Shinners purportedly 'putting it up to the Brits' to let on they're still 'nationalists'. One can only tune out and hope some level of sanity eventually prevails.
 

blinding

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Yes- all of this and an open border in Ireland for people while there were checks entering GB from both parts of Ireland. It's plain that if the circumstances are right a prime minister will contemplate such measures without a second thought.
In fairness , Mainland Brits have put Enough Money into Northern Ireland for them to choose to do with it as they wish .
 

Ireniall

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In fairness , Mainland Brits have put Enough Money into Northern Ireland for them to choose to do with it as they wish .
The thing is that the wartime arrangements were simply seen as a practical solution rather than a threat to the integrity of the UK. It is a measure of the insecurity of Unionists that every little thing is now seen as a threat- I presume because demographics and other circumstances have provided a more realistic background for this to happen.
 

ON THE ONE ROAD

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Yup. A nation’s strategic interests shouldn’t vary from election to election.

GB would clearly love to be shot of NI. GB recognises the historic obligation they owe the majority of those in NI who want to remain in the UK. There isn’t a quick solution. GB can’t force them out, they just have to wait for demographics to be free of them.
now is their chance. had it since before the last election. Either the theory holds that they want out of ireland or it doesn't.
 

ON THE ONE ROAD

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The statement always seemed bizarre any way. Britain has no strategic interest in Ireland. So it wouldn't matter to them if a communist regime came to power in Dublin then?

They spent 30 years fighting a war because they really want to leave?

Just ask yourself does Ireland have any strategic interest in Britain. The answer is yes. We export a lot of goods to the place and we wish for that to continue. Remember, our own government even campaigned in Britain against Brexit. We have interests and they have interests.

Now with Brexit things change again. Britain is outside and will now be surrounded by the EU. Britain was on the winning side in two world wars because the Germans couldn't starve them out. The Atlantic remained under their control.

It is assumed that in future should the North vote to end partition that Britain will accept this. But we've already had politicians in the Republic saying 50% + 1 is not enough. The British could do the same.
common sense is a wonderful sight.
 

galteeman

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A large majority of the mainland British (both citizens and politicians) don't want NI.
At present they are only using it as a bargaining chip.
But that's different to actually wanting it.


NI is a fiscal black hole.
It provides absolutely no advantages to the rest of the UK.
In fact, it is only disadvantageous to them, sucking time, resources and monumental opportunity cost (i.e. the Brits would prefer to spend the annual NI subsidy on their own health service etc.).
It's an all-round headache with no payback.

Didn't Tom King, when he was secretary of state for NI, say something along the lines of 'We are there out of Duty (to the Unionists), not Territory' ?
Brooke was only re-affirming this stance.
Nothing has changed.
No I think the vast majority of Brits don't know much about NI or care. The money given to NI is small compared to their overall budget and means nothing to them in the general scheme of things. It's not a headache to them at all really because most of them know or care little about the place.
Thing is May was about to sell out NI at drop of hat just before xmas before she realised the DUP could actually pull down her govt. It seemed like she hadn't even given NI a single thought in all those negotiations until she got that phone call from Arlene at last minute and it hit her that her govt. could fall.
That proves that she or her team doesn't give a toss either way about NI on principal.
 

galteeman

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The entire sentiment behind the Tories is a vague fantasy of returning britain to their 20th century position of an sea based empire on the fridges of Europe free to plunder whoever their choose. Unfortunately for us Ireland features in that fantasy because they still consider us 'their people' and Brexit awoke passions people believed were once behind us.

It should be obvious that this issue cannot be settled until britians final overseas colony, the north eastern province of Ireland, is surrendered.
Nope the Tories do not consider us 'their people' and they actually don't give a toss about us and know little or nothing about us.
 

galteeman

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If the Conservatives weren't dependent on the 10 DUP votes in Westminister I am quite sure that the Government there would have accepted the latest, and indeed the first in December, plan by the EU on the North.
we are very unlucky that the DUP have the balance of power at the moment.
 

raetsel

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Some people are baying for an opportunity to be on the wrong side.

Actually, we just need politicians with backbone to represent our interests.

Instead they are donning superficial green jerseys, selling us out and yelping like idiots at the thoughts of deliberately antagonizing Nothern Unionists, so as to make sure that they will look down on us - depite the clowns they elect themselves.
:lol:
Believe me, northern unionists don't need outside forces to make them feel antagonised.
Quite a few of them feel that way every morning in life before they even get out of bed.
 

irish_bob

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Britain's may not, but May does. Several of Northern Ireland's MPs are propping up her government. The conversation might be different if she and her government weren't so beholden to the DUP.
SF could change all that by taking there seats ( as a means to an end )
 

blinding

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No I think the vast majority of Brits don't know much about NI or care. The money given to NI is small compared to their overall budget and means nothing to them in the general scheme of things. It's not a headache to them at all really because most of them know or care little about the place.
Thing is May was about to sell out NI at drop of hat just before xmas before she realised the DUP could actually pull down her govt. It seemed like she hadn't even given NI a single thought in all those negotiations until she got that phone call from Arlene at last minute and it hit her that her govt. could fall.
That proves that she or her team doesn't give a toss either way about NI on principal.
If the ordinary mainland Brit considered how much they have spent and how much they do spend they would very sensibly say Cheerio .
 

Ex celt

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If the ordinary mainland Brit considered how much they have spent and how much they do spend they would very sensibly say Cheerio .
Is that when they are talking about the NE of England?
The majority of mainlanders love NI however particularly as the DUP are helping to keep Soviet Agent Corbynov out of power. Jezzky,contrary to the fake news,won the election by 262 seats to 317 which allowed him to address the nation from the pyramid victory stage at the glasnostsky organic allotment big courgettefest.
 

FOURGREENFIELDS

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If the ordinary mainland Brit considered how much they have spent and how much they do spend they would very sensibly say Cheerio .
If the ordinary mainland Brit was taught the correct history of 'their Empire' at school and how much they took out of other lands, how they destroyed native cultures and ruined the lives of indigenous peoples, how many millions they killed and the shameful legacy they have left around the globe they would sensibly stay quiet or go red with embarrassment and shame.
 

comet

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Is that when they are talking about the NE of England?
The majority of mainlanders love NI however particularly as the DUP are helping to keep Soviet Agent Corbynov out of power. Jezzky,contrary to the fake news,won the election by 262 seats to 317 which allowed him to address the nation from the pyramid victory stage at the glasnostsky organic allotment big courgettefest.

" The majority of 'mainlanders' love NI " are you mainlining?
 


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