Britians Trillion Pound Horror Story

Thac0man

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This was on last night and I have to say it was very very good. Some of the statistics as regards government spending and its effect on industry were stark and are well worth a look. Especially those figures of State spending compared to successful booming economies like China. The British state is repsonsible for 53% of the economic expenditure in the UK, compared to 23% in China. Food for thought. The industrial growth statistics are inverse.

Britain's Trillion Pound Horror Story - 4oD - Channel 4

There have been threads on P.ie regarding media bias and hiding the truth. Well this is the truth, we like Britian are sinking under the weight of Quangos and bloated and inefficient Public Service monopolies. It also illustrates very well how the poorest of society are suffering rather than benefitting from state control. Tax recycling, borrowing, the collapse and supression of industry and the utter futility of the service economy.

It is an ambush documentry in some regards, it corners George Osborne and a Union leader - but to date it is the opinion of both Finance politicians and the vested interests of unions who are framing the debate on public finance, both in the UK and Ireland. Bertie followed Tony Blair and we are nearly in the same place now.

We though in fact are worse off, the UK is actually having a debate, we are still not facing reality. Even most critics of Fianna Fail are only fighting to make sure the Croke park agreement is honoured and there is no reform. Que Labours poll rise.

Mid way through is also tackles the 'front line services' issue, illustrating that out of 7.5 million public servents in the UK, about 2.5 (a figure that includes private nurse and doctors) is the max - 5 million are not front line. A 2 to 1 disparity which is in fact higher if actual private nurses etc are excluded.

There are a few ads to get through at the start of this, but if you missed it on Thursday the 11th, watch it now.

if we want to be a dynamic economy, this documentry points out what has to be done.
 


Baztard

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Didn't see it all but have to agree that what I did see was really good. We need to import the Hong Kong example to Ireland and get on with building a very different society to the one we have now.
 

Jezza

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One thing I would have liked to have seen touched on was what those people think of Thatcher. Did she really do any of the things they would like to see done, or was it all smoke and mirrors?

Their take on the current Tories seemed to be that they are only about 1% less profligate than labour, and the 'cuts' are really just tiny reductions in prosepctive increases.
 

Thac0man

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Didn't see it all but have to agree that what I did see was really good. We need to import the Hong Kong example to Ireland and get on with building a very different society to the one we have now.
There was an interesting part before that about Health, and the German system compared to the UK one. Using a private heath insurance scheme, where the poors contribution is subsidised, better service is delivered to the poorest. Service of the kind that cannot be gotten through public services like the NHS (or HSE).

What is also highlighted for me though was the fact that Ireland is almost a carbon copy of the most inefficient system in Europe, the UK. We can talk of independance, yet we have not followed any other European example, only copied the UK.

Another statistic on regional economies reliance on government showed the whopping 81% of the Northern Ireland economy is tied to government spending.

That statistic clearly illustrates another problem. Not only are we aping the failing UK economic model, but we cannot compete with it. The Service industry in the UK is thriving off the back of public spending and in turn starting to really dominate Irish markets. So we are not only a copy of the UK model, but becoming a derivitive extension of it and the UK economy.

All talk of us being fiscally independent is nonsense when we are so closely linked to and affected by the UK, whom we have copied (thanks alot Bertie!).
 
G

Gimpanzee

I thought it was excellent too. Very anti tax, anti government, so I wouldn't go so far as to say it was 'truthful'. While I'd be sympathetic, I think there is a story worth telling from the other side too. But was a great tv in the way it cut through all the complexities and dealt in fundamentals in a way anyone could understand.

My favourite bit was in relation to the NHS, and the opposition to private health provision because of the need to provide adequately for the poor. Aside from referring to Netherlands, Germany etc... the point that they don't take the same approach to other fundamental needs such as food and clothing, yet no one is starving or without shoes was very well made.
 

Thac0man

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Their take on the current Tories seemed to be that they are only about 1% less profligate than labour, and the 'cuts' are really just tiny reductions in prosepctive increases.
That was the clear impression. They did however touch on the rising influence of electors for whom state handouts are a must. The Tories are beholden to the stae sponsired electors. We do it here too. Croke park and protecting dole payments.

Secure and combine those two sections of the electorate and a political party is quids in. Labour have stolen that vote off FF, and hence FG have gone down the path of deeper reform because they cannot compete.

The system as it stands creates dependants, dependants look to the government and both reward each other - money for votes, votes for money. The dependant electors are the ones who will decide government here and whether its FF or Labour, they will hold sway. But unilke the UK, we are facing the very real prospect of becoming bankrupt.
 

Akrasia

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I didn't see it, but given the history of Martin Durkin's films, i would be very suspicious of any of the 'facts' revealed in the film.

Most channel 4 'documentaries' are of a very poor quality with little regard for honesty or accuracy in reporting and will prefer sensationalism over accuracy any chance they get.
 

Panopticon

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One thing I would have liked to have seen touched on was what those people think of Thatcher. Did she really do any of the things they would like to see done, or was it all smoke and mirrors?

Their take on the current Tories seemed to be that they are only about 1% less profligate than labour, and the 'cuts' are really just tiny reductions in prosepctive increases.
Most of these people would have supported Thatcher as the best option available. They would have supported her economic restructuring policy, but opposed her fiscal policy of above-inflation spending growth.
 

A view from England

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One thing I would have liked to have seen touched on was what those people think of Thatcher. Did she really do any of the things they would like to see done, or was it all smoke and mirrors?

Their take on the current Tories seemed to be that they are only about 1% less profligate than labour, and the 'cuts' are really just tiny reductions in prosepctive increases.
In the UK we are suffering because of 13 years of a socialist Government. Public spending soared over the Blair/Brown period and we were even borrowing during the boom times of the early 2000's. 13 years of mass immigration. 13 years of massive public sector pay rises. 13 years of increased public sector jobs. Sound familiar? What we did not have was the housing boom that Ireland suffered from.
The Tories are trying to put things right with £80Bn cuts over the next Parliament which is pretty tough but needed. This does not cut the debt, only the deficit. What the UK needs is growth. That is why the pound is low at the expense of inflation. That is why Cameron is selling the UK vision to the Chinese and Rolls Royce have just got a big order for engines in China as an example of what is required in the UK. We need inward investment and home grown manufacture as well as growth in service provision across the world.
Where the UK differs from Ireland is in the ability to manipulate it's currency and set it's own interest rates to support these requirements. The road ahead is rocky and it will not be easy but we need to create, build and export and keep those bloddy left wingers well away form the public coffers for the next decade at least. When you see the Left marching and rioting like the leftist students did this week then you know the politicaians are doing the right things.;)
 

A view from England

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Most of these people would have supported Thatcher as the best option available. They would have supported her economic restructuring policy, but opposed her fiscal policy of above-inflation spending growth.
Thatcher did what had to be done at the time. Crush the Unions and bring the economy into line. Whilst the destruction of the old economies was devastating to local areas and resulted in millions of unemployed, there was a benefit overall to the economy by the end of the decade.
The challenge in bad times is to do the right thing overall. The poorest tend to suffer most when an economy realigns. How can an eceonomy realign without people suffereing? Solve that and you will be a revered world leader. Fail and you will become a hate figure. Thats why Thatcher is still loved by some and hated by some. It depends which side you fell on during the 80's.
 

Jezza

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Part of Thatcher's election platform in 1979 was that she would 'cull the Quangos'. Within two years they had increased threefold.
 

Akrasia

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Brehon

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Didn't see it all but have to agree that what I did see was really good. We need to import the Hong Kong example to Ireland and get on with building a very different society to the one we have now.
Hong Kong have a land value tax in place. That is why their other production and consumer taxes are low.
 

Brehon

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Part of Thatcher's election platform in 1979 was that she would 'cull the Quangos'. Within two years they had increased threefold.
The civil service have to take a large part of blame here as well. Where else are their retired department heads going to go when they retire. for every generation of civil service and new layer of quangos are produced. It take a strong government to go against the civil service. She probably saw it as a quid pro quo.
 

Jezza

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That's it with her though, is it not? A proto-Tea Partier. All for the rigours of the free market, until it was her class in the sights, then it was "ah, but...".
 

Thac0man

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That's it with her though, is it not? A proto-Tea Partier. All for the rigours of the free market, until it was her class in the sights, then it was "ah, but...".
The balance is Thatcherite corrections, but along side the instigation of proper market oversight. Anyone who believes that a 'free market' should mean no regulation is frankly nuts, considering what has happened globally resulting from the likes of Lehmann Brothers activities. However we are in the prediciment we are in because we have not introduced market, government and state reform, but at the same time removed oversight.

Thatcher may have relied on quangos and in the end I think failed because her market reforms over estimated Britains compeditivness against foreign imports. But both Tony Balir and Bertie Ahern promoted socialist style State dominance of the economy, sufficating industry and advancing service industries to keep money in circulatin between the State monopolies and an attending private sector.

The C4 Progam did make a very good point about Service industries. They are bullsh*t. Plain and simple, they are bullsh*t. They add no value to the export economy and nothing to the balance of trade. All they do is recycle tax money in diminishing amounts.

Now with that in mind we should look at how subsequent Irish governments have promoted the future of Irelands industry. They hav'ent. They have said that we should develop a 'service economy'. That is nonsense, in a world where the services that are required internationally are multilingual.

What has the government done to promote the teaching of foreign languages to compliment the growth in the desired Service industry in even an EU environment? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Nothing from the Dept. of Education, FAS or any other brach of government, State or semi-state. We have a low corporate tax rate and that is all we have. Even that advantage is to some extent offset by the continued failure of our education system to provide graduates fit for purpose (unless Intel, google and Hewlett Packard are lying).

So in plain terms our Public Sector economy has grown to monstrous proportions while domestic industry is almost non-existant and foreign companies are only here to avail of our low tax. Without them we would have no industry at all! The government part in economic growth is only to keep the corporate tax low. The bodies they set up and relied upon to foster growth have failed and what success they have had has to be off set against the massive cost of running bodies like FAS and th IDA (and thats an ongoing cost and liability).

FG are the only party that have broached the area of reform, but even they do not go far enough. We import workers by the thousand, because available irish workers were sucked into the State machine. So we now have a low paid service industry attending to a State monstrosity which results in diminishing fiscal returns and higher imports. Even our service industry now is in foreign hands, the UKs Tesco, Aldi Lidl, Iceland and most of our high street shops selling foriegn goods.... all foreign. All the irish money is based on borrowing, from foriegners.

Higher tax, or taxation at all, is not the solution. Total reform is. All the solutions being put forward by government are to extend our borrowing as if we can pay any of it back. In truth our economy is in a deep mire and the only solutions we are seeing are aimed at avoiding the inevitable default that must come.
 


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