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British Diplomat Says Brits Oppose Backstop For Fear Of UK Breakup.

TruthInTheNews

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A well respected British diplomat, speaking under Chatham House Rules, says that British opposition to the backstop is grounded in the fear that any concessions made to the Irish would lead to Scottish demands for the same and that this could lead to the breakup of the United Kingdom. He says that the DUP in particular have been comparing the UK to federal Yugoslavia which eventually broke up into independent republics demarcated along religious and ethnic lines. They point out that Catholic Croatia broke free of Yugoslavia and that the ethnic Serb enclave in Croatia, which declared independence and became the Republic of Serbian Krajina (RSK) controlling one third of Croation territory, was eventually crushed and retaken by Croatia.

He claims that it is not the Backstop per se that is the problem. It is the fear that Scotland would demand similar arrangements with the EU if the British Government agrees to allow NI remain in the EU free trade area. That might presage the breakup of the UK if NI and Scotland did well out of the arrangement.

He pointed out that British civil servants were already working on plans to perform the necessary customs checks at NI ports and airports and he said that checks will still be done at NI ports and airports because it will not be possible to police the border. He gave the example of Poland, where Polish customs seized 600 million cigarettes within Polish borders. Poland is a major transit point for the illegal smuggling of cigarettes into the EU. He said that customs checks at ports and airports were internationally recognized as the best way of enforcing tariff barriers. He said it was highly likely that the Irish Government would impose customs checks at Irish ports for the same reason.

All in all a very interesting discussion. Perhaps the best way of avoiding a hard border is customs checks at ports North and South. That would mean we could enjoy cheap American chicken, assuming the Brits get an FTA with the US, but still export cheese tariff free to the EU.
 


Niall996

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A well respected British diplomat, speaking under Chatham House Rules, says that British opposition to the backstop is grounded in the fear that any concessions made to the Irish would lead to Scottish demands for the same and that this could lead to the breakup of the United Kingdom. He says that the DUP in particular have been comparing the UK to federal Yugoslavia which eventually broke up into independent republics demarcated along religious and ethnic lines. They point out that Catholic Croatia broke free of Yugoslavia and that the ethnic Serb enclave in Croatia, which declared independence and became the Republic of Serbian Krajina (RSK) controlling one third of Croation territory, was eventually crushed and retaken by Croatia.

He claims that it is not the Backstop per se that is the problem. It is the fear that Scotland would demand similar arrangements with the EU if the British Government agrees to allow NI remain in the EU free trade area. That might presage the breakup of the UK if NI and Scotland did well out of the arrangement.

He pointed out that British civil servants were already working on plans to perform the necessary customs checks at NI ports and airports and he said that checks will still be done at NI ports and airports because it will not be possible to police the border. He gave the example of Poland, where Polish customs seized 600 million cigarettes within Polish borders. Poland is a major transit point for the illegal smuggling of cigarettes into the EU. He said that customs checks at ports and airports were internationally recognized as the best way of enforcing tariff barriers. He said it was highly likely that the Irish Government would impose customs checks at Irish ports for the same reason.

All in all a very interesting discussion. Perhaps the best way of avoiding a hard border is customs checks at ports North and South. That would mean we could enjoy cheap American chicken, assuming the Brits get an FTA with the US, but still export cheese tariff free to the EU.
I often wonder what is the obsession with some English people regarding the 'Union.' If Scotland and NI opt to break away, what's the issue for someone in England. Nothing changes for them. Why care? In fact they're always moaning that they don't have their own devolved parliament.
 

between the bridges

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I often wonder what is the obsession with some English people regarding the 'Union.' If Scotland and NI opt to break away, what's the issue for someone in England. Nothing changes for them. Why care? In fact they're always moaning that they don't have their own devolved parliament.
Ach nail do ye nat see their obsession as akin to yer own? Sure if the mythical utopian UI ever happened what difference would it make to a Brit hater living in London...
 

ffc

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A well respected British diplomat, speaking under Chatham House Rules, says that British opposition to the backstop is grounded in the fear that any concessions made to the Irish would lead to Scottish demands for the same and that this could lead to the breakup of the United Kingdom. He says that the DUP in particular have been comparing the UK to federal Yugoslavia which eventually broke up into independent republics demarcated along religious and ethnic lines. They point out that Catholic Croatia broke free of Yugoslavia and that the ethnic Serb enclave in Croatia, which declared independence and became the Republic of Serbian Krajina (RSK) controlling one third of Croation territory, was eventually crushed and retaken by Croatia.

He claims that it is not the Backstop per se that is the problem. It is the fear that Scotland would demand similar arrangements with the EU if the British Government agrees to allow NI remain in the EU free trade area. That might presage the breakup of the UK if NI and Scotland did well out of the arrangement.

He pointed out that British civil servants were already working on plans to perform the necessary customs checks at NI ports and airports and he said that checks will still be done at NI ports and airports because it will not be possible to police the border. He gave the example of Poland, where Polish customs seized 600 million cigarettes within Polish borders. Poland is a major transit point for the illegal smuggling of cigarettes into the EU. He said that customs checks at ports and airports were internationally recognized as the best way of enforcing tariff barriers. He said it was highly likely that the Irish Government would impose customs checks at Irish ports for the same reason.

All in all a very interesting discussion. Perhaps the best way of avoiding a hard border is customs checks at ports North and South. That would mean we could enjoy cheap American chicken, assuming the Brits get an FTA with the US, but still export cheese tariff free to the EU.
The best way to avoid a hard border, and to appease the unionist community, in Scotland and Northern Ireland, is to support a permanent UK wide Customs Union. It's the obvious solution, but it's Labour's solution and it may mean not really leaving the EU at all.

So the DUP won't support it, because, well, because something about Corbyn and the hardline Tories won't support it because they want to go off on some bizarre imperial journey to the past. Stupidity will probably cause the break up of the UK.
 

Niall996

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Ach nail do ye nat see their obsession as akin to yer own? Sure if the mythical utopian UI ever happened what difference would it make to a Brit hater living in London...
I don't know. If you can point me in the direction of this mythical Brit Hater you are permanently obsessed with, I'll go and ask him or her.
 

between the bridges

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I don't know. If you can point me in the direction of this mythical Brit Hater you are permanently obsessed with, I'll go and ask him or her.
Find thon nearest mirror an talk to the ugly mug that appears in it...
 

Niall996

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Find thon nearest mirror an talk to the ugly mug that appears in it...
Not just an obsessed stalker with a fascination for some mythical being in London but a tetchy juvenile one as well! LOL.
 

Ireniall

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A well respected British diplomat, speaking under Chatham House Rules, says that British opposition to the backstop is grounded in the fear that any concessions made to the Irish would lead to Scottish demands for the same and that this could lead to the breakup of the United Kingdom. He says that the DUP in particular have been comparing the UK to federal Yugoslavia which eventually broke up into independent republics demarcated along religious and ethnic lines. They point out that Catholic Croatia broke free of Yugoslavia and that the ethnic Serb enclave in Croatia, which declared independence and became the Republic of Serbian Krajina (RSK) controlling one third of Croation territory, was eventually crushed and retaken by Croatia.

He claims that it is not the Backstop per se that is the problem. It is the fear that Scotland would demand similar arrangements with the EU if the British Government agrees to allow NI remain in the EU free trade area. That might presage the breakup of the UK if NI and Scotland did well out of the arrangement.

He pointed out that British civil servants were already working on plans to perform the necessary customs checks at NI ports and airports and he said that checks will still be done at NI ports and airports because it will not be possible to police the border. He gave the example of Poland, where Polish customs seized 600 million cigarettes within Polish borders. Poland is a major transit point for the illegal smuggling of cigarettes into the EU. He said that customs checks at ports and airports were internationally recognized as the best way of enforcing tariff barriers. He said it was highly likely that the Irish Government would impose customs checks at Irish ports for the same reason.

All in all a very interesting discussion. Perhaps the best way of avoiding a hard border is customs checks at ports North and South. That would mean we could enjoy cheap American chicken, assuming the Brits get an FTA with the US, but still export cheese tariff free to the EU.
He seems to be doing everything he can to avoid pointing to the actual real problem-Brexit itself. The poisonous gutter press have been given free reign in positioning the EU as the primary symptom of the supposed fall from a position of world influence which the UK had during the war and which inevitably declined steeply after it. It has gotten away unchallenged with suggesting that the road back to greatness was to get rid of the EU 'shackles'. The level and extent of this delusion has come as an utter surprise to me. The UK is in fact not accurately represented by the majority of its very moderate , tolerant and well spoken political class. Much of the country's political infrastructure is in fact dominated by British Nationalist Luddites and the rest of us would be better off if they left as soon as possible and let them get on with their increasingly pathetic little schemes. When the young ones finally wrestle the country back from the generation of old farts which are doing this then they may be worth listening to again.
 

Dame_Enda

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I think the Tory Right are concerned about it for that reason. I think many British politicians and probably most British people would not mind letting go of NI as a price of Brexit, especially given the outdated views of the DUP on abortion and gay rights.
 

derryman

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A well respected British diplomat, speaking under Chatham House Rules, says that British opposition to the backstop is grounded in the fear that any concessions made to the Irish would lead to Scottish demands for the same and that this could lead to the breakup of the United Kingdom. He says that the DUP in particular have been comparing the UK to federal Yugoslavia which eventually broke up into independent republics demarcated along religious and ethnic lines. They point out that Catholic Croatia broke free of Yugoslavia and that the ethnic Serb enclave in Croatia, which declared independence and became the Republic of Serbian Krajina (RSK) controlling one third of Croation territory, was eventually crushed and retaken by Croatia.

He claims that it is not the Backstop per se that is the problem. It is the fear that Scotland would demand similar arrangements with the EU if the British Government agrees to allow NI remain in the EU free trade area. That might presage the breakup of the UK if NI and Scotland did well out of the arrangement.

He pointed out that British civil servants were already working on plans to perform the necessary customs checks at NI ports and airports and he said that checks will still be done at NI ports and airports because it will not be possible to police the border. He gave the example of Poland, where Polish customs seized 600 million cigarettes within Polish borders. Poland is a major transit point for the illegal smuggling of cigarettes into the EU. He said that customs checks at ports and airports were internationally recognized as the best way of enforcing tariff barriers. He said it was highly likely that the Irish Government would impose customs checks at Irish ports for the same reason.

All in all a very interesting discussion. Perhaps the best way of avoiding a hard border is customs checks at ports North and South. That would mean we could enjoy cheap American chicken, assuming the Brits get an FTA with the US, but still export cheese tariff free to the EU.
Is there a link for this.?
 

livingstone

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The OP is predicated on an unlinked claim by an unnamed diplomat speaking at some unspecified event who evidently doesn't know entirely what they are talking about.

For example, the apparent preparations for checks at ports and airports in NI: but of course the backstop means that checks will only be required on agricultural products moving GB to NI. Checks will not be required on manufactured goods moving GB to NI - they can be inspected at premises or on the market as occurs today. But checks on agricultural products moving GB to NI are not new under the backstop. They already take place. The backstop might mean an increase in incidence of checks. But not some new introduction of checks.

There will be no customs checks at ports and airports. The only checks will be on sanitary and phytosanitary standards for agricultural products.
 

Roomtwo

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It doesn't make sense.
Scotland “demands” things/ just votes differently all the time. Throughout the Brexit negotiations the UK government have gone out of their way to insult the Scottish government, parliament and voters. The UK govt hasn't shown any fear of its actions increasing support for independence. Why would that suddenly change at this point?

There's no form of Brexit that won't cause economic devastation. Polls show Scotland wants independence if there is any kind of Brexit. If the UK government believe that Scotland has a route out of the UK, then they know that we'll be gone if Brexit goes ahead, whatever happens with the backstop.
 

SideysGhost

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He says that the DUP in particular have been comparing the UK to federal Yugoslavia which eventually broke up into independent republics demarcated along religious and ethnic lines. They point out that Catholic Croatia broke free of Yugoslavia and that the ethnic Serb enclave in Croatia, which declared independence and became the Republic of Serbian Krajina (RSK) controlling one third of Croation territory, was eventually crushed and retaken by Croatia.
It's very....well very p.ie that a user called TruthInTheNews is notorious for posting reams of fantasy gibberish they completely made up while coming down off the meth.

Although I did get a giggle out of the idea of Brick Dodds running round Westminster having furtive conversations in dark corners with Tory MPs to warn them about how the Fenians are plotting to break up the UK in order to later crush and subjugate the poor innocent British. "Them Caflicks will kill us all so they will"
 

PBP voter

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OP please provide a source.

Thank you.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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No
I think the Tory Right are concerned about it for that reason. I think many British politicians and probably most British people would not mind letting go of NI as a price of Brexit, especially given the outdated views of the DUP on abortion and gay rights.
I've suspected for years that Westminster has been searching for a face-saving way out of Northern Ireland. Scotland is clearly a different ballgame.
 

Titan

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A well respected British diplomat, speaking under Chatham House Rules, says that British opposition to the backstop is grounded in the fear that any concessions made to the Irish would lead to Scottish demands for the same and that this could lead to the breakup of the United Kingdom. .
Our opposition to the backstop has nothing to do with those issues.

As currently written in the draft withdrawal agreement, the EU decides when/if the UK can leave the backstop. No other international treaty gives sole authority to one party in the treaty over another. That, in a nutshell, is the main problem with the backstop and why it will never be accepted in the UK.

The other "little" problem with the backstop is it is, in effect, part of a triple lock to keep us tied into the EU.

But much of the rest of the agreement is total pants too. We'll still be in the customs union, will not be able to control freedom of movement, still have no control of our laws or money.

The worrying thing is, as things now stand, is that if the backstop is dropped, the withdrawal agreement would likely get passed by Westminster.
 

livingstone

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Our opposition to the backstop has nothing to do with those issues.

As currently written in the draft withdrawal agreement, the EU decides when/if the UK can leave the backstop. No other international treaty gives sole authority to one party in the treaty over another. That, in a nutshell, is the main problem with the backstop and why it will never be accepted in the UK.
That's not true. The EU doesn't have sole authority on bringing the backstop to an end. It is a joint decision.

It's not true that no other international treaty has that set up. Many treaties do not have unilateral exit mechanisms. The most obvious relevant example is the Good Friday Agreement, which could only be ended with joint Irish and UK agreement.

The other "little" problem with the backstop is it is, in effect, part of a triple lock to keep us tied into the EU.
No it doesn't. What are the other two elements of this 'triple lock'?

But much of the rest of the agreement is total pants too. We'll still be in the customs union, will not be able to control freedom of movement, still have no control of our laws or money.
Only one of those is correct. Yes, the backstop means staying in the customs union.

But there's nothing in the backstop that will prevent the UK ending free movement, nor will the UK have to pay anything to the EU under the backstop, nor with any EU law apply to the UK outside of NI.

The worrying thing is, as things now stand, is that if the backstop is dropped, the withdrawal agreement would likely get passed by Westminster.
But not by the European Parliament or the European Council.
 

Titan

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That's not true. The EU doesn't have sole authority on bringing the backstop to an end. It is a joint decision.

Iropean Council.
It's not a joint decision, because the ECJ has sole authority over any disagreement on the matter, in effect giving the EU a veto on the whole backstop and the whole agreement.
 

Titan

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But there's nothing in the backstop that will prevent the UK ending free movement,
On free movement, we cannot do anything about EU citizens already in the UK, so if they're unemployed and on benefits, we're not allowed to kick them out.

nor will the UK have to pay anything to the EU under the backstop, nor with any EU law apply to the UK outside of NI.l.
Assuming the UK does come out of the backstop, (or the backstop gets dropped from the agreement) the UK will still have to have "due regard" for EU law. But if the UK stays in the backstop, then its full ECJ control.

On the money issue and this is why the backstop is a triple lock, if the backstop doesn't end beyond 2020, the UK will have to pay into the EU's next budget cycle which ends in 2028.
 


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