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British Govt Shows the Way Over Cuts - We Must Follow


onlyasking

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Joined
Dec 19, 2008
Messages
5,735
Once upon a time, Britain elected Margaret Thatcher. She stated "there is no such thing as society". She generated the deepest divisions Britain had seen in decades, perhaps centuries. She removed controls on the activities of banks and the rest of the financial services industry. Under her guidance the British elite became ever wealthier than the rest.

In this state the right-wing business people, their journalists and their political puppets loved her. Mary Harney placed us "closer to Boston than Berlin", with the USA having adopted its own version of Thatcherite free-market fundamentalism. We, along the Americans, have generated the deepest divisions our societies have seen in decades. We also removed controls on the activities of the banks and the rest of the financial services industry. Under Bertie and Biffo's guidance the Irish elite became ever wealthier than the rest, as did the elite in the US under Clinton and Bush. That's the normal outcome of pandering to right-wing economists and politicians.

As a result of all the free-market fundamentalism, the economies of Ireland, the UK and the US are in tatters. And what is the Thatcherite response in Ireland and the UK? Slash away at the ordinary child, woman and man in the street, and protect the rich from the efffects of their own follies.

Thatcherite free-market doctrine has led us all over the cliff, and still the free-market fundamentalists insist we take more of their medicine, that they are the ones with the answers.

We appear to have ditched our human critical faculties for those of lemmings.

The programme of cuts in the UK has led to drooling expectations that we're going to follow our betters in the UK once again. Our own right-wing goons in the business sector, in their media organisations and elsewhere are just chomping at the bit over the prospects of unions, ordinary workers, the sick and the unemployed being crushed mercilessly.

This is the kind of thing they're dreaming of:

Spending review 2010: cuts hurt families with children most - Telegraph

Nice people, eh?
 

ocoonassa

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Joined
Oct 14, 2010
Messages
6,130
Nice people, eh?
Quite delightful yes, here is world renowned economist Dr Michael Hudson talking about them. He says they are a kleptocracy.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pwAFohWBL4]YouTube - Six Minutes with the Renegade Economist - Michael Hudson Special...[/ame]

As you can see from his wiki entry he is highly regarded [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Hudson_%28economist%29"]Michael Hudson (economist) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

When men such as him are saying such things, that there is a wholesale robbery taking place, well I can't understand why we aren't a little more annoyed than we appear to be.
 

roc_

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Joined
Dec 5, 2009
Messages
6,470
I'm not sure that the term 'free-market' should assume the weight of the blame.

What is really to blame is the symbiosis between big business and government. This has in fact been completely antithetical to the ideals of a free market and free enterprise.

I would even go as far to say that if a government truly wanted to promote the ideals of a properly free market, then its only involvement in the economic and business world should only be (a) the policing of marketing and other communications by businesses, to ensure that they reflect and aspire towards real truthfulness, and (b) the policing of competitive abuses such as tacit cartels, the awarding of lucrative government contracts to cronies, and other abuses like the comandeering of standards or certifications etc.
 
G

Gimpanzee

What is really to blame is the symbiosis between big business and government.
and big Unions.

The reason the situation was let get so bad was because they had the three way 'partnership'. There was no ideological reasoning behind it.
 

onlyasking

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Joined
Dec 19, 2008
Messages
5,735
Quite delightful yes, here is world renowned economist Dr Michael Hudson talking about them. He says they are a kleptocracy.

YouTube - Six Minutes with the Renegade Economist - Michael Hudson Special...

As you can see from his wiki entry he is highly regarded Michael Hudson (economist) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

When men such as him are saying such things, that there is a wholesale robbery taking place, well I can't understand why we aren't a little more annoyed than we appear to be.
Good contribution. I'm mystified myself, as were foreign correspondents quoted on the RTE news at one on Sunday. In fact, foreign correspondents are gobsmacked by our sheep-like refusal to question the medicine being prescribed by the very idiots that cheered on the economic insanity of the past decade and a half.
 

gatsbygirl20

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Joined
Dec 1, 2008
Messages
22,790
Good contribution. I'm mystified myself, as were foreign correspondents quoted on the RTE news at one on Sunday. In fact, foreign correspondents are gobsmacked by our sheep-like refusal to question the medicine being prescribed by the very idiots that cheered on the economic insanity of the past decade and a half.
We can imitate the British and be as austere as we like, but our Bank disaster may have pushed us over the cliff, as far as "impressing the markets" goes. No matter how many of our own people we put on the breadline, "the markets" have got our number, and are not fooled.

But there are those who do not want to waste this golden opportunity to advance their ideological agenda---slashing wages and SW even if it kills the patient. (the same people who tell us we cannot raise taxes for that very reason)

Cliches circulate---in the print media, on Frontline, on Liveline, on P.ie--and eventually harden into orthodoxy, the better to serve the "slash and burn" agenda. (Is it because of our Catholic past that we so easily learn off our Catechism and parrot the required truisms?)

This crash has been underpinned by enabling cliches---"NAMA is the only game in town" "No one ever taxed their way out of a recession" etc.
And the latest one: "Most people want the IMF to come in to make the hard decisions"
Posters on P.ie are quoting surveys, vox pop interviewees are on message: "We need to get it over with. I would be relieved if the IMF came in and made the hard decisions"
You can bet those who want the IMF to make "the hard decisions" are assuming that the "hard decisions" will not effect them.
 

MPB

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Joined
Nov 27, 2009
Messages
4,465
We can imitate the British and be as austere as we like, but our Bank disaster may have pushed us over the cliff, as far as "impressing the markets" goes. No matter how many of our own people we put on the breadline, "the markets" have got our number, and are not fooled.

But there are those who do not want to waste this golden opportunity to advance their ideological agenda---slashing wages and SW even if it kills the patient. (the same people who tell us we cannot raise taxes for that very reason)

Cliches circulate---in the print media, on Frontline, on Liveline, on P.ie--and eventually harden into orthodoxy, the better to serve the "slash and burn" agenda. (Is it because of our Catholic past that we so easily learn off our Catechism and parrot the required truisms?)

This crash has been underpinned by enabling cliches---"NAMA is the only game in town" "No one ever taxed their way out of a recession" etc.
And the latest one: "Most people want the IMF to come in to make the hard decisions"
Posters on P.ie are quoting surveys, vox pop interviewees are on message: "We need to get it over with. I would be relieved if the IMF came in and made the hard decisions"
You can bet those who want the IMF to make "the hard decisions" are assuming that the "hard decisions" will not effect them.
You forgot " the recovery will be export led ". Foreign companies exporting chemicals and drugs for profits that will be expatriated give or take 12.5% or 2%.

How come Kerrygold butter is cheaper in a Tescos in Britain than it is in a Tescos in Kerry?

How come the Irish Independent is cheaper in Belfast than it is in Dublin?
 

Panopticon

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Joined
May 27, 2009
Messages
5,576
Weren't the British so prosperous in the 70s, when the unions refused to bury the dead because they didn't get 25% pay increases.

Weren't we so prosperous in the 80s, when our main export was intelligent young people.

Lefties, cop on and use statistics instead of left-wing buzzwords. Otherwise, you are guilty of wanting us to go back to that world, when you had power and the rest of us had little.
 

onlyasking

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Joined
Dec 19, 2008
Messages
5,735
Weren't the British so prosperous in the 70s, when the unions refused to bury the dead because they didn't get 25% pay increases.
Seeing as you're wearing your Thatcherite badge proudly, I presume you agree with Thatcher that "there is no such thing as society". Clearly, you agree with Thatcherite doctrine, with its insistence on maximum de-regulation of the business activities of the elite, as expressed by the banking and financial services sector. You have ignored entirely the disastrous consequences of the imposition of free-market ideologies. What exactly is your problem with meeting the arguments of "lefties" in full, instead of chucking a couple of out-of-date hand-grenades in and then running off.

The Brits had far lower unemployment in the 70s than they did under Thatcher. Social inequality was far less than it is now. British society was far less violent than it is now. Who benefited from the yuppie excesses, which you may remember resulted in a crash in the early 90s.

Weren't we so prosperous in the 80s, when our main export was intelligent young people.
Weren't "so prosperous in the 80s" as when? As we are now?

As for not wishing to return to "exporting intelligent young people" as we did during the 80s, are you even awake? Can you not see the bottom of the economic pit rushing up to hit you in the face? We are rushing to our doom like lemmings, and young people, who will be subject to some of the greatest pressures as a result of our right-wing madness, will be leaving in their thousands.

I'm getting ready to wave goodbye to my kids in the next few years. And their leaving us is not to do with not having good qualifications. My son attends a fairly rough state school, but is doing higher level subjects in next year's Leaving Cert with the exception of one subject. He's also one of the minority of kids in the state who do Applied Maths. He's exactly the kind of kid we need.

Do you know what? Much as it will break my heart, I love my kids too much to force them to spend the rest of their lives living in a corrupt, squalid little state, run by the rich for the rich. A state that has seen in the last couple of years the most intense campaign of hate ever seen in the state's history, a campaign directed by very highly paid people in the business sector and in its media entities against teachers, nurses, clerical officers and the rest of the public service. My kids will find it almost impossible to find another society which has let loose to the same degree naked greed and its companion, pure contempt, not to mention rank stupidity.

I deeply regret returning to this poxy remnant of a society in 1995, to live amongst so many mercenary serfs, who'll champion the rich while crushing their own.

Lefties, cop on and use statistics instead of left-wing buzzwords.
Cop on? Seeing as the right-wing business forces and their media and political puppets led us over the edge of the abyss, I'd advise you to consider whether or not you're going to embarrass yourself before hitting the submit button.

As for statistics, show me the statistics that back up your position that financial deregulation has been good for Ireland.

Otherwise, you are guilty of wanting us to go back to that world, when you had power and the rest of us had little.
When "lefties had the power"? When did "lefties" ever have the power in Ireland. When did the rich elite ever release their grip on the levers of power?

Another reminder of why this state has been brought to its knees. Cheers, but it's not as if we haven't got enough reminders of that already.
 

bonkers

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 4, 2006
Messages
24,491
Seeing as you're wearing your Thatcherite badge proudly, I presume you agree with Thatcher that "there is no such thing as society". Clearly, you agree with Thatcherite doctrine, with its insistence on maximum de-regulation of the business activities of the elite, as expressed by the banking and financial services sector. You have ignored entirely the disastrous consequences of the imposition of free-market ideologies. What exactly is your problem with meeting the arguments of "lefties" in full, instead of chucking a couple of out-of-date hand-grenades in and then running off.

The Brits had far lower unemployment in the 70s than they did under Thatcher. Social inequality was far less than it is now. British society was far less violent than it is now. Who benefited from the yuppie excesses, which you may remember resulted in a crash in the early 90s.



Weren't "so prosperous in the 80s" as when? As we are now?

As for not wishing to return to "exporting intelligent young people" as we did during the 80s, are you even awake? Can you not see the bottom of the economic pit rushing up to hit you in the face? We are rushing to our doom like lemmings, and young people, who will be subject to some of the greatest pressures as a result of our right-wing madness, will be leaving in their thousands.

I'm getting ready to wave goodbye to my kids in the next few years. And their leaving us is not to do with not having good qualifications. My son attends a fairly rough state school, but is doing higher level subjects in next year's Leaving Cert with the exception of one subject. He's also one of the minority of kids in the state who do Applied Maths. He's exactly the kind of kid we need.

Do you know what? Much as it will break my heart, I love my kids too much to force them to spend the rest of their lives living in a corrupt, squalid little state, run by the rich for the rich. A state that has seen in the last couple of years the most intense campaign of hate ever seen in the state's history, a campaign directed by very highly paid people in the business sector and in its media entities against teachers, nurses, clerical officers and the rest of the public service. My kids will find it almost impossible to find another society which has let loose to the same degree naked greed and its companion, pure contempt, not to mention rank stupidity.

I deeply regret returning to this poxy remnant of a society in 1995, to live amongst so many mercenary serfs, who'll champion the rich while crushing their own.



Cop on? Seeing as the right-wing business forces and their media and political puppets led us over the edge of the abyss, I'd advise you to consider whether or not you're going to embarrass yourself before hitting the submit button.

As for statistics, show me the statistics that back up your position that financial deregulation has been good for Ireland.



When "lefties had the power"? When did "lefties" ever have the power in Ireland. When did the rich elite ever release their grip on the levers of power?

Another reminder of why this state has been brought to its knees. Cheers, but it's not as if we haven't got enough reminders of that already.
excellent post
 

onlyasking

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 19, 2008
Messages
5,735
You forgot " the recovery will be export led ". Foreign companies exporting chemicals and drugs for profits that will be expatriated give or take 12.5% or 2%.
So, domestic demand has little part to play? Two of our biggest markets, which interestingly enough are the two other states (UK & US) which bought into Thatcherite free-market doctrines to a similar degree to us, have economies that are flat-lining at best. I wouldn't be getting too carried away by our prospects. Of course, those who champion the "export-led recovery" do so in order to justify slashing the domestic economy in the manner prescribed by those right-wing goons who drove us over the cliff in the first place.

How come Kerrygold butter is cheaper in a Tescos in Britain than it is in a Tescos in Kerry?
You tell me. And if you're going to make big divisive statements, some evidence would be required.

How come the Irish Independent is cheaper in Belfast than it is in Dublin?
Perhaps the upper and middle-class readers of the Sindo have a lot more cash at their disposal then they'd admit, and therefore are willing to pay full whack for their hit of anti-public sector hate, all the better to deflect attention away from the significant inflation of their wealth over the past 15 years.
 

LeDroit

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 11, 2010
Messages
1,771
Weren't the British so prosperous in the 70s, when the unions refused to bury the dead because they didn't get 25% pay increases.

Weren't we so prosperous in the 80s, when our main export was intelligent young people.

Lefties, cop on and use statistics instead of left-wing buzzwords. Otherwise, you are guilty of wanting us to go back to that world, when you had power and the rest of us had little.
+1

The lefties are back, be under no illusions. They were silent during the boom as their ideology of envy and punishment was seen for what it is by the man-in-the-street who was flourishing in the free market. Now, that we're in a recession the leftomaniacs are offering themselves as a populist saviour. The problem is that their political vision hasn't changed since Marx and their Robin Hood economic mission will result as it always does with a collapse in economic activity and tax receipts which will send them chasing their tail perpetually increasing taxes. Like the dog they will never admit that the chasing is fruitless.

We can't waste the opportunity the crisis presents. This is our Thatcher moment to put manners on the Ship of State and it's barnacles.
 
M

MrFunkyBoogaloo

Seeing as you're wearing your Thatcherite badge proudly, I presume you agree with Thatcher that "there is no such thing as society". Clearly, you agree with Thatcherite doctrine, with its insistence on maximum de-regulation of the business activities of the elite, as expressed by the banking and financial services sector. You have ignored entirely the disastrous consequences of the imposition of free-market ideologies. What exactly is your problem with meeting the arguments of "lefties" in full, instead of chucking a couple of out-of-date hand-grenades in and then running off.

The Brits had far lower unemployment in the 70s than they did under Thatcher. Social inequality was far less than it is now. British society was far less violent than it is now. Who benefited from the yuppie excesses, which you may remember resulted in a crash in the early 90s.



Weren't "so prosperous in the 80s" as when? As we are now?

As for not wishing to return to "exporting intelligent young people" as we did during the 80s, are you even awake? Can you not see the bottom of the economic pit rushing up to hit you in the face? We are rushing to our doom like lemmings, and young people, who will be subject to some of the greatest pressures as a result of our right-wing madness, will be leaving in their thousands.

I'm getting ready to wave goodbye to my kids in the next few years. And their leaving us is not to do with not having good qualifications. My son attends a fairly rough state school, but is doing higher level subjects in next year's Leaving Cert with the exception of one subject. He's also one of the minority of kids in the state who do Applied Maths. He's exactly the kind of kid we need.

Do you know what? Much as it will break my heart, I love my kids too much to force them to spend the rest of their lives living in a corrupt, squalid little state, run by the rich for the rich. A state that has seen in the last couple of years the most intense campaign of hate ever seen in the state's history, a campaign directed by very highly paid people in the business sector and in its media entities against teachers, nurses, clerical officers and the rest of the public service. My kids will find it almost impossible to find another society which has let loose to the same degree naked greed and its companion, pure contempt, not to mention rank stupidity.

I deeply regret returning to this poxy remnant of a society in 1995, to live amongst so many mercenary serfs, who'll champion the rich while crushing their own.



Cop on? Seeing as the right-wing business forces and their media and political puppets led us over the edge of the abyss, I'd advise you to consider whether or not you're going to embarrass yourself before hitting the submit button.

As for statistics, show me the statistics that back up your position that financial deregulation has been good for Ireland.



When "lefties had the power"? When did "lefties" ever have the power in Ireland. When did the rich elite ever release their grip on the levers of power?

Another reminder of why this state has been brought to its knees. Cheers, but it's not as if we haven't got enough reminders of that already.
+1 Excellent stuff.

Panopticon btw is over on another thread agreeing with Lucinda Cretin's call to cut the minimum wage. Members of his family won't create jobs apparently because they have to pay nearly €9 an hour to do so.

[...]I have members of my extended family who would create jobs in small businesses, but not at nearly €9 an hour[...]
 

LeDroit

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 11, 2010
Messages
1,771
Panopticon btw is over on another thread agreeing with Lucinda Cretin's call to cut the minimum wage. Members of his family won't create jobs apparently because they have to pay nearly €9 an hour to do so.
Ever wondered why the govt pays €5 an hour to people on the dole (€200/40hours) but an employer can't pay them €5 to take them off the dole? Hmmm.
 
M

MrFunkyBoogaloo

+1

The lefties are back, be under no illusions. They were silent during the boom as their ideology of envy and punishment was seen for what it is by the man-in-the-street who was flourishing in the free market. Now, that we're in a recession the leftomaniacs are offering themselves as a populist saviour. The problem is that their political vision hasn't changed since Marx and their Robin Hood economic mission will result as it always does with a collapse in economic activity and tax receipts which will send them chasing their tail perpetually increasing taxes. Like the dog they will never admit that the chasing is fruitless.

We can't waste the opportunity the crisis presents. This is our Thatcher moment to put manners on the Ship of State and it's barnacles.

Yes, lets see where Thatcherism gets us... Oh wait! :rolleyes:
 

pedagogus

Well-known member
Joined
May 12, 2010
Messages
2,561
British Government

+1

The lefties are back, be under no illusions. They were silent during the boom as their ideology of envy and punishment was seen for what it is by the man-in-the-street who was flourishing in the free market. Now, that we're in a recession the leftomaniacs are offering themselves as a populist saviour. The problem is that their political vision hasn't changed since Marx and their Robin Hood economic mission will result as it always does with a collapse in economic activity and tax receipts which will send them chasing their tail perpetually increasing taxes. Like the dog they will never admit that the chasing is fruitless.

We can't waste the opportunity the crisis presents. This is our Thatcher moment to put manners on the Ship of State and it's barnacles.
All of calls for an "ideology of envy and punishment" on this site appear to me to emanate from your side of the house and are usually expressed in the most rancorous and bilous of tones.
 
M

MrFunkyBoogaloo

Ever wondered why the govt pays €5 an hour to people on the dole (€200/40hours) but an employer can't pay them €5 to take them off the dole? Hmmm.
Ever 'lived' on the dole?

edit: Btw why would anyone work for €5 p/h when the state would give it to you for doing nothing? Is that right-wing logic?
 

LeDroit

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Joined
Mar 11, 2010
Messages
1,771
All of calls for an "ideology of envy and punishment" on this site appear to me to emanate from your side of the house and are usually expressed in the most rancorous and bilous of tones.
I assume you're talking about the PS being benchmarked to the current private sector pay and redundancy realities. But I thought you guys were all in favour of equality and fairness. ;)
 

LeDroit

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Joined
Mar 11, 2010
Messages
1,771
Ever 'lived' on the dole?

edit: Btw why would anyone work for €5 p/h when the state would give it to you for doing nothing? Is that right-wing logic?
I'd never be able to live on the dole. Have you ever seen what a 3 litre engine can do to your bank account?

I'm suggesting that people be freed from the dole. You're the one whose ideology would rather see them on the dole than reduce wages to what the Market can bear.
 
M

MrFunkyBoogaloo

Furthering the €5 argument by LeDreamer; I work for minimum wage (8.65). Were it to be cut to €5 p/h I would only be able to afford to pay my rent every month. Do I then feed myself on air? How would I cloth myself? Pay utilities?
 
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