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British officials predicted war – and Arab defeat – in Palestine in 1948

rainmaker

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Madagascar for the Jews. Hilarious. Wipe out half of them and stick the other half on an island off Africa!
Hmm, are you saying Churchill had plans to wipe out half of the Jewish population - because a heavyweight claim like that would require some pretty heavyweight evidence.
 


JohnD66

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No the declassified documents state they were fleeing following the cowardly example of their inept leaders - ""Jewish victories … have reduced Arab morale to zero and, following the cowardly example of their inept leaders, they are fleeing from the mixed areas in their thousands."
A subjective and tendentious comment like that is not proof of anything. How would he have known, in any case, why the people were running away? Did he ask them?

Given that massacres were indeed occurring, isn't just reasonable that people were afraid and ran away?
 

Dame_Enda

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L'Chaim said:
So now we have more proof that the Arabs did flee from the fighting and were not 'expelled' en masse as many would try to argue
They fled the Israeli death squads that destroyed 400 Arab villages/towns like Deir Yassin under Operation Dalat.

You are guilty of double standards when it comes to the question of the Jewish refugees from Arab countries.
 

Little_Korean

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I think it's safe to say that the Arabs did not flee in such large numbers in 1948 of their own accord.

Having said that, I think it's also safe to say that if the Arabs had won, the Israelis would have been driven into the sea.

Trying to find a 'good side' over a 'bad side' in this particular incident is an exercise in futility, not that it'll stop people from trying.
 

pinemartin

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The Guardian publishes declassified documents shedding light on the struggle for State of Israel. The British government knew from the moment it planned to withdraw its forces from Palestine more than 60 years ago that partition of the territory and the founding of the state of Israel would lead to war and defeat for the Arabs.

As early as October 1946, two years before partition, UK officials warned London that Jewish opinion would oppose partition "unless the Jewish share were so enlarged as to make the scheme wholly unacceptable to Arabs".

British officials warned the colonial secretary, George Hall: "The Jewish public … endorsed the attitude of its leaders that terrorism is a natural consequence of the general policy of His Majesty's Government", including turning away ships carrying "illegal" Jewish immigrants, which included the illegal infiltration of Jews into Palestine.

A report written in early 1948, as the war for Israel broke out, read "Jewish victories … have reduced Arab morale to zero and, following the cowardly example of their inept leaders, they are fleeing from the mixed areas in their thousands. It is now obvious that the only hope of regaining their position lies in the regular armies of the Arab states."

British officials predicted war

So now we have more proof that the Arabs did flee from the fighting and were not 'expelled' en masse as many would try to argue.

Regarding the illegal infiltration of Jews into palestine being terrorism I don't know what to say about that, except that all the Irish who are in America illegally must be terrorists :) .......though maybe back then things were looked at differently than they are now. But I'm glad to see the Guardian, of all publications, is now admitting that Arabs fled from Israel in their thousands. Hopefully these declassified documents will put an end to the false accusation that Israel was involved in ethnic cleansing
So the bit you like in the report you support but the bit you dont like you dont support. you cant have it both ways, I forgot you are Israeli so you think you can.

The report says thousands, so I presume less than 10 maybe 2 maybe 4. What about the hundreds of thousands of Arabswho were murdered or ethnically cleansed?
 

GDPR

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don't think that would have been a great idea, we'd have ended up with another pre-90s South African type state.
At least it would be theirs. It would have been very different from SA as it wouldnt' have been a colonial displacement. Maybe without so many enemies around them they would have been less Nationalist and more relaxed.
 

Little_Korean

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At least it would be theirs. It would have been very different from SA as it wouldnt' have been a colonial displacement. Maybe without so many enemies around them they would have been less Nationalist and more relaxed.
Given the state of the Middle East today, somehow I doubt it!
 

P Ryan

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At least it would be theirs. It would have been very different from SA as it wouldnt' have been a colonial displacement. Maybe without so many enemies around them they would have been less Nationalist and more relaxed.
sorry if I'm somehow misunderstanding you, but how would it not involve a colonial displacement. The current population is upwards of 20 million mainly of what I assume to be the natives...
 

GDPR

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sorry if I'm somehow misunderstanding you, but how would it not involve a colonial displacement. The current population is upwards of 20 million mainly of what I assume to be the natives...
My understanding is that Madagascar was unpopulated at the time this was originally suggested.
 

DuineEile

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The Guardian publishes declassified documents shedding light on the struggle for State of Israel. The British government knew from the moment it planned to withdraw its forces from Palestine more than 60 years ago that partition of the territory and the founding of the state of Israel would lead to war and defeat for the Arabs.

As early as October 1946, two years before partition, UK officials warned London that Jewish opinion would oppose partition "unless the Jewish share were so enlarged as to make the scheme wholly unacceptable to Arabs".

British officials warned the colonial secretary, George Hall: "The Jewish public … endorsed the attitude of its leaders that terrorism is a natural consequence of the general policy of His Majesty's Government", including turning away ships carrying "illegal" Jewish immigrants, which included the illegal infiltration of Jews into Palestine.

A report written in early 1948, as the war for Israel broke out, read "Jewish victories … have reduced Arab morale to zero and, following the cowardly example of their inept leaders, they are fleeing from the mixed areas in their thousands. It is now obvious that the only hope of regaining their position lies in the regular armies of the Arab states."

British officials predicted war

So now we have more proof that the Arabs did flee from the fighting and were not 'expelled' en masse as many would try to argue.

Regarding the illegal infiltration of Jews into palestine being terrorism I don't know what to say about that, except that all the Irish who are in America illegally must be terrorists :) .......though maybe back then things were looked at differently than they are now. But I'm glad to see the Guardian, of all publications, is now admitting that Arabs fled from Israel in their thousands. Hopefully these declassified documents will put an end to the false accusation that Israel was involved in ethnic cleansing



Palestine.



Nice country.



We'll take it.








D
 

P Ryan

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My understanding is that Madagascar was unpopulated at the time this was originally suggested.
I'm not sure but the 1900 census already had the population at 2.2 million

It would have been sparsely population given its large size though.
 

Glaucon

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And we all know what "a political decision acceptable to Arab interests" was........no Jewish state at all in the geographical area of palestine, no matter what size.
Would Israel accept the establishment of an "Arab state" in the Arab-majority areas of Israel (i.e. excluding the West Bank and Gaza)?

No? Didn't think so.
 

Slievenaglogh

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But Palestine didn't exist. An empty land for a people with no land. Read your Leon Uris again.
As someone who cheered for Israel in the Six-day War, it was reading Leon Uris later that made me realise that the Jewish people in Israel / Palestine were not necessarily the good guys! He makes some very disparaging remarks about the Arabs; nowadays we'd probably call them racist.
 
Last edited:

former wesleyan

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A subjective and tendentious comment like that is not proof of anything. How would he have known, in any case, why the people were running away? Did he ask them?

Given that massacres were indeed occurring, isn't just reasonable that people were afraid and ran away?
You seem to be inferring that the fighting which began in 1947 under the Arab Irregulars and continued when the Combined Arab Armies invaded was a one way street of massacres of Arabs by Jews? Seriously, you have no right to present yourself as a serious historian if that's the case.
 

JohnD66

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You seem to be inferring that the fighting which began in 1947 under the Arab Irregulars and continued when the Combined Arab Armies invaded was a one way street of massacres of Arabs by Jews? Seriously, you have no right to present yourself as a serious historian if that's the case.
Present myself? Whatever. I am not a historian of the Israeli Palestinian conflict for the record.

However I did not say that. What I said was that as the Israelis started to win the 1948 war their forces did commit atrocities. It then seems like a reasonable assumption that Palestinian civilians would have feared for their lives and fled. Even if there was not a concerted attempt to intimidate them, which some, including Israeli, sources say there was.
 

former wesleyan

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Present myself? Whatever. I am not a historian of the Israeli Palestinian conflict for the record.

However I did not say that. What I said was that as the Israelis started to win the 1948 war their forces did commit atrocities. It then seems like a reasonable assumption that Palestinian civilians would have feared for their lives and fled. Even if there was not a concerted attempt to intimidate them, which some, including Israeli, sources say there was.
You posted the OP so forgive me for the assumption that you knew what you were talking about. As for massacres, the aftermath of the Dier Yassin battle/massacre was the ambush and slaughter of two busses of Jewish doctors and nurses in Jerusalem. As for the British officers you quote, their partility for the Arab cause involved officering the Arab Legion for over 20 years and such actions as dynamiting over 20 synagogues in Jerusalem. To this day the British Foreign Office is known as the Camel Corps!
I tend to take the warblings of the rather louche British officer caste in Palestine with the same pinch of salt that most Irish people take their more recent prognostications.
 

JohnD66

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You posted the OP so forgive me for the assumption that you knew what you were talking about. As for massacres, the aftermath of the Dier Yassin battle/massacre was the ambush and slaughter of two busses of Jewish doctors and nurses in Jerusalem. As for the British officers you quote, their partility for the Arab cause involved officering the Arab Legion for over 20 years and such actions as dynamiting over 20 synagogues in Jerusalem. To this day the British Foreign Office is known as the Camel Corps!
I tend to take the warblings of the rather louche British officer caste in Palestine with the same pinch of salt that most Irish people take their more recent prognostications.
I didn't actually.

My point was quite simply that the actual OP argued this showed the Palestinians left voluntarily in 1948 and I pointed that it didn't.
 

L'Chaim

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A subjective and tendentious comment like that is not proof of anything. How would he have known, in any case, why the people were running away? Did he ask them?

Given that massacres were indeed occurring, isn't just reasonable that people were afraid and ran away?
Which is my point really, if you read the OP. Many people try to claim that Israel expelled about half a million Arabs in 1948 by ethnic cleansing. It's either was ethnic cleansing or it wasn't. And it wasn't. What really happened, and these declassified documents would back it up, is that most simply fled from the fighting and the chaos that goes with war, took themselves out of harm's way, and then hoped to return when the fighting was over and the business of destroying the Jewish state had been done.

And if you are going to say massacres were indeed occurring then don't use Deir Yassin as an example. Even the Arabs have concluded that that was only a battle.
 

L'Chaim

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So the bit you like in the report you support but the bit you dont like you dont support. you cant have it both ways, I forgot you are Israeli so you think you can.

The report says thousands, so I presume less than 10 maybe 2 maybe 4. What about the hundreds of thousands of Arabswho were murdered or ethnically cleansed?
How do you come to the conclusion that I accept some and don't accept other parts of the report? I just made an observation that the British claimed that the Jewish public endorsed terrorism because they supported the Jews coming to Israel in ships illegally. And I made the point that "I don't know what to say about that, except that all the Irish who are in America illegally must be terrorists .......though maybe back then things were looked at differently than they are now. "

Now to your claim that hundreds of thousands of Arabs who were murdered or ethnically cleansed? Now either there was ethnic cleansing or there wasn't. There's no wiggle room here. It's clear there wasn't. If there was then why are so many Arabs living in Israel? Did the so called 'ethnic cleansers' somehow overlook them? And regarding 'murder' of hundreds of thousands that you claim, there is no wiggle room here either. The Arab states and their armies started this war. And this war was to have been a war of annihilation. The attempts to murder and ethnically cleanse hundreds of thousands was the aim of the Arab states and their armies, not Israel.

Now I'm not cherry picking the parts of the report I like and not supporting the parts I don't like. I think that these declassified documents show things as they were at the time and are not the revised history that many today accept
 

eyelight

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Now I'm not cherry picking the parts of the report I like and not supporting the parts I don't like. I think that these declassified documents show things as they were at the time and are not the revised history that many today accept
Here's a part of the report you won't like then...
From an article in The Jerusalem Post.

British Mandate boss said Jews were ‘like Nazis’
Newly published records reveal British High Commissioner of Palestine viewed Jewish fighters in 1940s as analogous to Nazis.

The British High Commissioner of Palestine viewed Jewish fighters there in the 1940s as analogous to Nazis, newly published records show.

On April 30, 1948, Alan Cunningham wrote to his superiors that as the Jews celebrated military successes, their “broadcasts, both in content and in manner of delivery, are remarkably like those of Nazi Germany." In another report, he said that the Jews were prepared for statehood and an “all-out offensive” with “all the equipment of a totalitarian regime."
 


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