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Bundesbank: No bail out for Italy.


Nemesiscorporation

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Oct 2, 2011
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The Bundesbank Chief has stated there will be no bailout for Italy.

Bundesbank chief: No bailout guarantee for Italy - The Local

There is real fear now in Europe of an Italian bail out which would be a horrendous financial nightmare for Europe

It would most likely lead to a transatlantic banking meltdown if Italy defaulted.

Also there is a growing fear in Northern Europe regarding what is emerging in Italy and what could emerge in other countries in the political sphere.

Beppe Grillo of Italy Is the Most Dangerous Man in Europe - SPIEGEL ONLINE

This all does not bode well for the Eurozone and could to further instability.

I personally have come to the conclusion that the governments of Europe need to act as one and face the markets down as they are clearly dictating to democracies without being elected and are creating a democratic vacuum, that could easily be filled by popularist far left and right parties that could bring in anarchist, communist, fascist or nazi governments in some countries by promising everything and delivering nothing pain and suffering on an even great scale.

What is you opinion regarding this situation.
 


Dublin 4

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That I'm rubbing of on you - Doomster! :p
 

sport02

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Bundesbank needs its weekly/monthly whinge. Does anyone pay attention to Buba or Weedmann anymore.
 

DownTheyGo

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Grillo does not fit with the German/EU code of democracy.

Lets attack Grillo.

EU democracy at its finest.
 

Nemesiscorporation

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That I'm rubbing of on you - Doomster! :p
:)

I am actually becoming genuinely worried. Up till now I have just been annoyed at various events and angry at how stupid they were as well as how easily preventable they were.

Over the last four weeks or so, more and more of my friends have been mentioning what is happening in southern Europe and the rise in extremism. It is not just Greece. Simmering miscontent is growing very rapidly all over Iberia, France, Italy, Greece with hints of something bad under the surface in Denmark and Sweden.

The pandering to markets is creating a democratic vacuum all over Europe and has went far to far.

I have a bad feeling that if we don't start to turn things around in a tangible way within the next year that a democracy in Europe could fall. That would be the worst possible outcome. It might be a neoliberal, nazi or communists wet dream, but it would be a disaster for every democracy in Europe.

I have read a lot of history and the parallel's with the 1930's are really starting to show themselves more clearly as time goes on.

History repeats itself, usually due to us being to stupid to learn from it and I am worried it could literally repeat itself, unless we grow up and make some hard decisions very fast.
 

Nemesiscorporation

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Oct 2, 2011
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14,180
Grillo does not fit with the German/EU code of democracy.

Lets attack Grillo.

EU democracy at its finest.
I recognise where Spiegel is coming from on Grillo. I suggest you do some checking on there facts before condemning.

Don't get me wrong. I am glad to see the entire Italian political system given a good shake up as it needed it. I hope Grillo is removed by his own party because I am worried about the parallels between him and another Italian. He is unelected so can not lead his party, which is a good thing and will most likely stop him from gaining power, which I am glad of. I hope one of the women in the party gets the reigns of power as that would really shake Italy up.
 

Mossy Heneberry

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Jun 10, 2009
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3,841
The Bundesbank Chief has stated there will be no bailout for Italy.

Bundesbank chief: No bailout guarantee for Italy - The Local

There is real fear now in Europe of an Italian bail out which would be a horrendous financial nightmare for Europe

It would most likely lead to a transatlantic banking meltdown if Italy defaulted.

Also there is a growing fear in Northern Europe regarding what is emerging in Italy and what could emerge in other countries in the political sphere.

Beppe Grillo of Italy Is the Most Dangerous Man in Europe - SPIEGEL ONLINE

This all does not bode well for the Eurozone and could to further instability.

I personally have come to the conclusion that the governments of Europe need to act as one and face the markets down as they are clearly dictating to democracies without being elected and are creating a democratic vacuum, that could easily be filled by popularist far left and right parties that could bring in anarchist, communist, fascist or nazi governments in some countries by promising everything and delivering nothing pain and suffering on an even great scale.
What is you opinion regarding this situation.
It is not the markets that are threatening the stability of Europe.

It is the EU that is responsible for that.
 

Nemesiscorporation

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It is not the markets that are threatening the stability of Europe.

It is the EU that is responsible for that.
I disagree.

The EU has some blame for not growing a backbone and telling the markets what to go do with themselves.

However most of the blame lies with the markets as the traders make more money, the more instability there is. That's the problem, they thrive on instability and therefore help create conditions to create more instability.
 

asset test

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Oct 3, 2008
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14,768
:)

I am actually becoming genuinely worried. Up till now I have just been annoyed at various events and angry at how stupid they were as well as how easily preventable they were.

Over the last four weeks or so, more and more of my friends have been mentioning what is happening in southern Europe and the rise in extremism. It is not just Greece. Simmering miscontent is growing very rapidly all over Iberia, France, Italy, Greece with hints of something bad under the surface in Denmark and Sweden.

The pandering to markets is creating a democratic vacuum all over Europe and has went far to far.

I have a bad feeling that if we don't start to turn things around in a tangible way within the next year that a democracy in Europe could fall. That would be the worst possible outcome. It might be a neoliberal, nazi or communists wet dream, but it would be a disaster for every democracy in Europe.

I have read a lot of history and the parallel's with the 1930's are really starting to show themselves more clearly as time goes on.

History repeats itself, usually due to us being to stupid to learn from it and I am worried it could literally repeat itself, unless we grow up and make some hard decisions very fast.
So much for Germany's terror of inflation for historical reasons so...

It is much worse than that. As I see it anyway.

The voice of the electorate has been trodden over to save institutions, banks, and so on.

Look at Cyprus now. Although that country's banking system is not without fault.

Just like all over Europe I'd say.

Watch this space if 10% is taken off deposits all over EU land.

What will be left? Granny's few bob in the post office.

I confess to not knowing too much about all this. Fingers in my ears probably. But the developments in Cyprus are worrying.
 

stopdoingstuff

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Feb 26, 2011
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I disagree.

The EU has some blame for not growing a backbone and telling the markets what to go do with themselves.

However most of the blame lies with the markets as the traders make more money, the more instability there is. That's the problem, they thrive on instability and therefore help create conditions to create more instability.
True but they can't do that if the governments and banks are not dodgy to begin with. Markets reflect perceptions of risk and financial soundness.
 

gerhard dengler

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Feb 3, 2011
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47,517
:)

I am actually becoming genuinely worried. Up till now I have just been annoyed at various events and angry at how stupid they were as well as how easily preventable they were.

Over the last four weeks or so, more and more of my friends have been mentioning what is happening in southern Europe and the rise in extremism. It is not just Greece. Simmering miscontent is growing very rapidly all over Iberia, France, Italy, Greece with hints of something bad under the surface in Denmark and Sweden.

The pandering to markets is creating a democratic vacuum all over Europe and has went far to far.

I have a bad feeling that if we don't start to turn things around in a tangible way within the next year that a democracy in Europe could fall. That would be the worst possible outcome. It might be a neoliberal, nazi or communists wet dream, but it would be a disaster for every democracy in Europe.

I have read a lot of history and the parallel's with the 1930's are really starting to show themselves more clearly as time goes on.

History repeats itself, usually due to us being to stupid to learn from it and I am worried it could literally repeat itself, unless we grow up and make some hard decisions very fast.
Italy has to finance €650 billion of debt between 2013 and 2015.
You're wise to be worried in my opinion
 

Nemesiscorporation

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True but they can't do that if the governments and banks are not dodgy to begin with. Markets reflect perceptions of risk and financial soundness.
Good points.

The insidious relationships between financial institutions and governments all over Europe is in my view dangerous and a threat to democracy and even capitalism.
 

Mossy Heneberry

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I disagree.

The EU has some blame for not growing a backbone and telling the markets what to go do with themselves.

However most of the blame lies with the markets as the traders make more money, the more instability there is. That's the problem, they thrive on instability and therefore help create conditions to create more instability.
No country had to borrow the money that the markets were offering. And there's absolutely no proof whatsoever that traders deliberately create instability.

The eurozone itself is fundamentally flawed. It has been since its creation, something the little englanders warned us about.
 

LamportsEdge

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I have to say I agree with Nemesiscorporation in her summary of what needs to happen fundamentally in the west and that is a re-assertion of political control over the merchant class behind the corporations.

Because the one thing I know about these people is that they are both the cause and what they see as the cure in an environment which they create. They are calling for public money to bail out their criminal cousins in the banks who are nothing more than money launderers for organised crime hidden behind innocuous banking titles while at the same time using 'disruption' techniques to further destabilise western economies so they can pick up money at the margins of the hedge-funding system.

It would be better for political control to be re-asserted over these people who wander back and forth at will across the line between economics and organised crime now and take the hit- establishing a serious governance network which identifies threats to economic stability in the future instead of stoking, praising and pretending to regulate it well after the fact.
 

Nemesiscorporation

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Italy has to finance €650 billion of debt between 2013 and 2015.
You're wise to be worried in my opinion
The debt is bad enough.

What is happening on the ground in Italy has me also very worried.

Separatism is rearing its head in the Tyrol with the German Tyrol looking to join up with Austria and now starting ot get support from Austrian politicians.

The Northern League would win in most of Italy north of the Appenine mountains if they got rid of there link with Beresconi.

The mafia controlled south looks like degenerating into revolution if nothing is done to tackle the mafia.
 

stopdoingstuff

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Good points.

The insidious relationships between financial institutions and governments all over Europe is in my view dangerous and a threat to democracy and even capitalism.
That is exactly the problem right there. They are too close. This is very bad for a healthy market since it leads to crony capitalism and it is even worse fro democracy because it means that governments can get rail-roaded into putting the banks first.
 

LamportsEdge

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Italy has to finance €650 billion of debt between 2013 and 2015.
You're wise to be worried in my opinion
Just to put my earlier comments about the links between corporations and organised crime into perspective HSBC laundered over $800billion worth of drug cartel money in Latin America in recent years. One bank laundering the rough equivalent of Italy's current debt burden.

And apparently we are asked to believe that the board and controllers of that bank were innocently sleeping at night unaware of this suspiciously heavy load of transactions passing through their organisation's accounts.
 

Nemesiscorporation

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That is exactly the problem right there. They are too close. This is very bad for a healthy market since it leads to crony capitalism and it is even worse fro democracy because it means that governments can get rail-roaded into putting the banks first.
The fact that banking representatives can sit in on EU negotiations which are only supposed to have either heads of state or finance ministers is to me beyond insane.

I would like to know when the banking industry became an EU country and who gave them the right to have a say alongside our elected representatives.

There needs to be a dividing wall between our elected representatives and vested interests, otherwise we could lose everything.
 

gerhard dengler

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The debt is bad enough.

What is happening on the ground in Italy has me also very worried.

Separatism is rearing its head in the Tyrol with the German Tyrol looking to join up with Austria and now starting ot get support from Austrian politicians.

The Northern League would win in most of Italy north of the Appenine mountains if they got rid of there link with Beresconi.

The mafia controlled south looks like degenerating into revolution if nothing is done to tackle the mafia.
OK. I was only aware of governmental gridlock and not the regional stuff.
 

Nemesiscorporation

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Just to put my earlier comments about the links between corporations and organised crime into perspective HSBC laundered over $800billion worth of drug cartel money in Latin America in recent years. One bank laundering the rough equivalent of Italy's current debt burden.

And apparently we are asked to believe that the board and controllers of that bank were innocently sleeping at night unaware of this suspiciously heavy load of transactions passing through their organisation's accounts.
The fact the entire board of directors is not in a jail cell is what is wrong with this entire situation.

They are in effect above the law and need to be jailed to start the process of bringing them under control.
 

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