Can Israel be both a Jewish and a Democratic state


seabhcan

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Good discussion/presentation on Isreal's attitude to Arab-Israelis.

Blood and Religion: Unmasking the Jewish and Democratic State

Video interview with Jonathan Cook

Jonathan Cook is a British journalist based in Nazareth, Israel. He has regularly published articles on the Middle East in international newspapers, English-language Arab publications and specialist magazines since 2001. This interview took place in Nazareth, Israel, on December 28th, 2006. To order a DVD copy of this program, please contact pdxjustice Media Productions at pdxjustice@riseup.net
http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... e18481.htm
 
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As long as Israel has its law of return which allows any jewish person in the world an automatic right to become an Israeli citizen it cannot call itself a democratic state.

Also, let's not forget the thousands of Bedouin who are denied the rights to clean water, workable infrastructure and even to build a home because the Israeli government does not recognise their villages.
 

seabhcan

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Its worse than that. The issue of the special education system for arabs who are Israeli citizens is interesting.

All arab teachers must be cleared by the Israeli secret service before they can work. This is not the case for Jewish citizens.

When a state treats its citizens differently depending on religion that state is racist and anti-democratic.
 

seanad voter

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Can Norn Iron be a democratic state given that it's based on a giant gerrymander, has the Free Presbyterian pope as its First Minister and its overall Head of State is Queen Elizabeth, Supreme Governor of the Church of England - the Established Church whose bishops sit in Parliament by right - and given that no Catholic can ever aspire to this Head of State position ?
 

JCSkinner

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seanad voter said:
Can Norn Iron be a democratic state given that it's based on a giant gerrymander, has the Free Presbyterian pope as its First Minister and its overall Head of State is Queen Elizabeth, Supreme Governor of the Church of England - the Established Church whose bishops sit in Parliament by right - and given that no Catholic can ever aspire to this Head of State position ?
In short, no. But it's on a different level of legitimacy entirely to that of Israel, I'd have thought.
 

seabhcan

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seanad voter said:
Can Norn Iron be a democratic state given that it's based on a giant gerrymander, has the Free Presbyterian pope as its First Minister and its overall Head of State is Queen Elizabeth, Supreme Governor of the Church of England - the Established Church whose bishops sit in Parliament by right - and given that no Catholic can ever aspire to this Head of State position ?
Israel is now what NI was in the 1950s.

Arabs in Israel are prevented from building new homes or moving to new areas. They are also limited to particular professions because so much of Israeli economy is declared to be "security related", i.e. Jews only.
 

White Horse

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It is a difficult task to achieve, but Israel still shines as a democratic beacon among Arab dictatorships.
 

Supersid

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White Horse said:
It is a difficult task to achieve, but Israel still shines as a democratic beacon among Arab dictatorships.
Indeed, and it is already far more democratic than many European countries.
 
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White Horse said:
It is a difficult task to achieve, but Israel still shines as a democratic beacon among Arab dictatorships.
I'm sorry what?!!!

The Israeli government sprayed roundup on the crops of arab-israelis in 2002 without warning. For those who don't know, humans aren't supposed to be in contact with roundup until 10 days after it has been sprayed.

Did this beacon of democracy share this with those it attacked? Did it f***
 

White Horse

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seabhcan said:
White Horse said:
It is a difficult task to achieve, but Israel still shines as a democratic beacon among Arab dictatorships.
Only for Jews. Arabs who are Isreali citizens and have lived peacefully in israel for decades are excluded. When they protest they are shot.

This is not a beacon for Arabs in other countries.
Really?

Are you referring to the arab Israeli's whose eletected representatives are in the Israeli parliament and whose best legal brains are members of the judiciary?

Are there any jewish high court judges in Syria or Iran?
 

JCSkinner

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andrew said:
JCSkinner said:
Israel will never be a democratic state.
Its vastly more democratic than the authoritarian regimes surrounding it. And Israel treats Palestinians more humanly than their Arab brethren, but I suppose Arabs killing other Arabs isnt very newsworthy.
That's arrant nonsense. Israel treats Palestinians as helots.
 

seabhcan

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White Horse said:
NYTimes (Published: March 31 said:
In the Israeli Arab community, life is divided into before and after October, when everything changed. In October, the Israeli police shot dead 13 Israeli Arabs during tense, raucous demonstrations. For many, hope then died that they would ever be accepted as full citizens of Israel with equal status and rights.
White Horse said:
Are there any jewish high court judges in Syria or Iran?
I don't know about Judges or syria, but there are Jewish parlimentarians in Iran.
 
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andrew said:
JCSkinner said:
andrew said:
JCSkinner said:
Israel will never be a democratic state.
Its vastly more democratic than the authoritarian regimes surrounding it. And Israel treats Palestinians more humanly than their Arab brethren, but I suppose Arabs killing other Arabs isnt very newsworthy.
That's arrant nonsense. Israel treats Palestinians as helots.
Ah right, lets consider Jordan, the least oppressive regime in the area:

Jordan killed more Palestinians in one month September 1970, known as Black September than Israel has killed during the three years of suicide bombings that began in the fall of 2000.
oops.

Only recently Lebanon bombed the hell out of a Palestinian refugee camp.
Surely it can't be good enough to say that Israel's alright becuase it's not as bad as some others?

It's actions are justified by saying, look, what they're doing is worse. Thats just a child's argument
 

seabhcan

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infamous-el-guapo said:
Surely it can't be good enough to say that Israel's alright becuase it's not as bad as some others?

It's actions are justified by saying, look, what they're doing is worse. Thats just a child's argument
Agreed. Would it be ok for the Gardai to beat up protestors in Dublin because the junta in Burma is doing worse?

Is it ok for Bertie to take 50 grand because Dick Cheney took 50 million?
 

meriwether

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JCSkinner said:
Only recently, Israel bombed the hell out of Lebanon! What's your point? That it's legitimate to compare happenings nearly forty years ago in Jordan with what's current in Israel? It's not.
Your entire argument regarding the current democratic nature of Israel is based upon what happened in 1947, is it not?

The Israeli government sprayed roundup on the crops of arab-israelis in 2002 without warning. For those who don't know, humans aren't supposed to be in contact with roundup until 10 days after it has been sprayed.

Did this beacon of democracy share this with those it attacked? Did it f***
Without condoning this, to what extent is this a function of the Intafada?
You know, the Palestinians have to bear some responsibility as to how they are treated due to the consequences of launching an intafada, and electing an organisation which sent brainwashed young people onto buses to blow it up, and is expressely dedicated to destroying the state of Israel.

Just like the Israeli's have to acknowledge the reason Palestinians blow themselves up on their buses is down to how they treat Palestinians.
 
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meriwether said:
JCSkinner said:
Only recently, Israel bombed the hell out of Lebanon! What's your point? That it's legitimate to compare happenings nearly forty years ago in Jordan with what's current in Israel? It's not.
Your entire argument regarding the current democratic nature of Israel is based upon what happened in 1947, is it not?

The Israeli government sprayed roundup on the crops of arab-israelis in 2002 without warning. For those who don't know, humans aren't supposed to be in contact with roundup until 10 days after it has been sprayed.

Did this beacon of democracy share this with those it attacked? Did it f***
Without condoning this, to what extent is this a function of the Intafada?
You know, the Palestinians have to bear some responsibility as to how they are treated due to the consequences of launching an intafada, and electing an organisation which sent brainwashed young people onto buses to blow it up, and is expressely dedicated to destroying the state of Israel.

Just like the Israeli's have to acknowledge the reason Palestinians blow themselves up on their buses is down to how they treat Palestinians.
Bedouins living in the Negev have nothing to do with the intifada. Must be difficult to know whats going on in the world without elctricity to power tvs and get news in when the Israeli government refuses to build roads to their villages.

And even if they did agree with the intifadas objectives it's no justification for launching unilateral attack on non-combatants
 
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