Can people who disagree with bailout put forward valid benefits of opposing it?

Right is right

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It is a bad deal but the problem is that we have 2 serious issues we are facing and doing the short-term thing will get us into worse trouble....it is like FF in Sept 08 rushing through the guarantees...

1 - We need funding for our banks or they go bust which now causes us massive problems as a country

2 - We need to borrow close to 20bn next year and over the next 3 years we will need to borrow about 50bn just to pay our day to day running costs.....At the moment that borrowing is costing us 9%.

If we default on all our debts there will be 2 things that will happen -

a - no-one will lend us anything and we will have to reduce our expenditure by 20bn this year which will destroy us or

b - anyone who lends us will be looking to earn 15-20% interest which will turn out to be more expensive....

If we run FF out before they put through this budget we let them off bringing through the most damaging budget in Irish electoral history as well as costing the country a fortune in interest.....Once the budget is done and the new Govt get full and detailed access to all the relevent information they can then proceed to change the agreements etc....while not putting through the damaging budget themselves without any chance of borrowing funds...
 


barrym

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If we run FF out before they put through this budget we let them off bringing through the most damaging budget in Irish electoral history as well as costing the country a fortune in interest.....Once the budget is done and the new Govt get full and detailed access to all the relevent information they can then proceed to change the agreements etc....while not putting through the damaging budget themselves without any chance of borrowing funds...
Maybe, but if another (more realistic) government were in place, i.e. one which wasn't trying to cover up their mistakes, then the deal might be one where some resources were being made available to incentivise the economy.
We are required to take the present deal because those negotiating know they are f....d in the next election, they even announced they were going to have one, ffs.
Anybody else would have put together a plan where money would be borrowed, even at high rates, to generate money to pay it back..... As it is the deal ensures we'll need a debt restructuring in the next few years 'cos we cannot repay. AJ, he of the IMF, said this morning, we won't need to pay back their money for 4.5 years but then we'd be on a 10 year payback, divided into 10x annual payments, note, less than 1 year before the election after next.....

Plenty of reasons to oppose the present arrangements.
 

dent

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You are a complete idiot. When the full figure is in, we won't have a hope of paying it back. We are going to go through 3 years of pain before the realisation that this has solved nothing, and we will still probably have to default, or get massive debt forgiveness.
 

Cassandra Syndrome

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Its perfectly simple. We have total savings of €180 Billion. Our total debt is up to €1 Trillion. This bailout is yet more debt at a high rate of interest with terms and conditions that include signing our souls and our children's souls away. It is mathematically impossible to service that debt's interest let alone pay it back.

We default, go bankrupt, start afresh.

The United States of America did this after its war of independence in 1776. Did its world end?
 

goosebump

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The United States of America did this after its war of independence in 1776. Did its world end?
This about sums up the level of constructive comment on this site.
 

Expatriot

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Right is right they have basically done everything that you would have had them do and we are totally screwed now. These retrospectives on how what was wrong was really right bore me.

At heart you love FF, you cant bare to think of anyone else running the country.
 

Expatriot

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This about sums up the level of constructive comment on this site.
Goosebump you are another that has defended every crazy policy that got us here, have some shame and stop posting. You are talking and have been talking complete nonsense.
 

Expatriot

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Do not let the people that caused this disaster reenter national debate as the agenda setters. They have had the run of the media and politics for too long. They are not safe to be let out


Could an adult please take over.

Oh wait they already have, thank god.
 

loaf

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This about sums up the level of constructive comment on this site.
Can you provide us with a moral justification for what is happening?

And saying 'we have no choice', or 'it will be worse if we default', is not a moral justification.

I'm not saying there isn't a moral case for the present plan, but I've yet to hear a convincing one.

We need to re-unite politics with morality, as well as deeply unfashionable concepts such as social justice. At present politics is an amoral 'management' of global capital and its necessary conditions. In other words, it is not politics.
 

Capt Blah

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The reality is that these goons have utterly screwed us.

By supporting these failed banks (in order to keep the details of Anglo secret) they have placed us in a default position - we cannot pay these debts.

My preferred option is for the incoming government to charge their predecessors with treason, state clearly and publicly that Ireland will not stand responsible for the criminal actions of Fianna Fail, and dump the banks in the skip behind Tesco, Rathmines.

Why are the Irish expected to save the Euro by going into multi-generational debt?

Why should we lose our jobs/houses/lifestyles to support Anglo crooks?

Answer: There is no reason.

As Willie Rushton used to say: Fukkim!
 

Expatriot

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The reality is that these goons have utterly screwed us.

By supporting these failed banks (in order to keep the details of Anglo secret) they have placed us in a default position - we cannot pay these debts.

My preferred option is for the incoming government to charge their predecessors with treason, state clearly and publicly that Ireland will not stand responsible for the criminal actions of Fianna Fail, and dump the banks in the skip behind Tesco, Rathmines.

Why are the Irish expected to save the Euro by going into multi-generational debt?

Why should we lose our jobs/houses/lifestyles to support Anglo crooks?

Answer: There is no reason.

As Willie Rushton used to say: Fukkim!
Well said.
 

Asparagus

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It is a bad deal but the problem is that we have 2 serious issues we are facing and doing the short-term thing will get us into worse trouble....it is like FF in Sept 08 rushing through the guarantees...

1 - We need funding for our banks or they go bust which now causes us massive problems as a country

2 - We need to borrow close to 20bn next year and over the next 3 years we will need to borrow about 50bn just to pay our day to day running costs.....At the moment that borrowing is costing us 9%.

If we default on all our debts there will be 2 things that will happen -

a - no-one will lend us anything and we will have to reduce our expenditure by 20bn this year which will destroy us or

b - anyone who lends us will be looking to earn 15-20% interest which will turn out to be more expensive....

If we run FF out before they put through this budget we let them off bringing through the most damaging budget in Irish electoral history as well as costing the country a fortune in interest.....Once the budget is done and the new Govt get full and detailed access to all the relevent information they can then proceed to change the agreements etc....while not putting through the damaging budget themselves without any chance of borrowing funds...
i would reject the premise and the governments fear mongering.

noone knows what would happen in the case of a default. Did the world stop lending to america when Lehmanns went under?
We have been ordered by the EU to not allow our banks to fail.
But thats exactly what we should have and could still do.

We don't have banks we have loan retailers - they are easily replaced if Anglo , AIB and BOI fall - their would be a brief void and then foreign banks or new irish banks would climb in. failing this set up 2 state banks and capitalise them with the NPRF.

So we are now just ireland again not anglo ireland and we have a more normal deficit.
The bond markets would probably come down to 5% if the Anglo contagion was removed.
As for our huge deficit - cut public salaries by 20%.
Cap salaries at 150K.

Happy days.

If the EU don't like it, let them buy anglo, aib and boi off of us and deal with the problem themselves.
Or give us an interest free loan.
 

Watch The Break

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The same morons are still in charge and the same simpletons are still supporting them. If you can't recognise the outrageous injustice that this whole process represents then you are a slave to begin with. You might as well be living in a dictatorship because you'd serve power regardless of what it does to you. Wrong is wrong.
 

Expatriot

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i would reject the premise and the governments fear mongering.

noone knows what would happen in the case of a default. Did the world stop lending to america when Lehmanns went under?
We have been ordered by the EU to not allow our banks to fail.
But thats exactly what we should have and could still do.

We don't have banks we have loan retailers - they are easily replaced if Anglo , AIB and BOI fall - their would be a brief void and then foreign banks or new irish banks would climb in. failing this set up 2 state banks and capitalise them with the NPRF.

So we are now just ireland again not anglo ireland and we have a more normal deficit.
The bond markets would probably come down to 5% if the Anglo contagion was removed.
As for our huge deficit - cut public salaries by 20%.
Cap salaries at 150K.

Happy days.

If the EU don't like it, let them buy anglo, aib and boi off of us and deal with the problem themselves.
Or give us an interest free loan.

Just for your info, cutting PS pay by 20% would net about 2.4 billion euro. That does not even cover the interest repayments on one bank.

We don't have a PS pay problem we have a busted banking system problem.
 

Right is right

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The same morons are still in charge and the same simpletons are still supporting them. If you can't recognise the outrageous injustice that this whole process represents then you are a slave to begin with. You might as well be living in a dictatorship because you'd serve power regardless of what it does to you. Wrong is wrong.
Did you actually read my post before you spouted out??? I'd specifically refer you to the last paragraph???
 

Right is right

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Joined
Oct 4, 2008
Messages
262
The reality is that these goons have utterly screwed us.

By supporting these failed banks (in order to keep the details of Anglo secret) they have placed us in a default position - we cannot pay these debts.

My preferred option is for the incoming government to charge their predecessors with treason, state clearly and publicly that Ireland will not stand responsible for the criminal actions of Fianna Fail, and dump the banks in the skip behind Tesco, Rathmines.

Why are the Irish expected to save the Euro by going into multi-generational debt?

Why should we lose our jobs/houses/lifestyles to support Anglo crooks?

Answer: There is no reason.

As Willie Rushton used to say: Fukkim!
Considering 60% of the bailout money is to be used to pay for Public Sector wages, social welfare payments, healthcare payments etc it is hardly all being used for the banks etc.....

When will you realise that there are 2 ISSUES involved and the major one at the moment is our CBD of 50bn over the next 3 years that we have to borrow for.....
 

Expatriot

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Considering 60% of the bailout money is to be used to pay for Public Sector wages, social welfare payments, healthcare payments etc it is hardly all being used for the banks etc.....

When will you realise that there are 2 ISSUES involved and the major one at the moment is our CBD of 50bn over the next 3 years that we have to borrow for.....
Again that is not correct. A large section of the money we are "borrowing" is in fact our own pension money. So that can be taken out of the 50 billion for running the country.

Also that "60%" is also being used to maintain the lowest taxes in the EU not to pay PS wages. PS wages have reduced year on year, business taxes have not gone up year on year. So we are borrowing for the tax short fall really.

It is normal to pay tax to fund health care and policing. It is not normal to pay tax or liquidate public pension schemes to give to banks. Not even the most right wing nut anywhere else in the world would agree with raises taxes to give to failed companies.

Borrowing to employ someone is a lot more productive than borrowing to flush cash down the toilet. In five years time we wont have a deficit but we will still be broke.

Why?

Banks.
 

Passer-by

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With many of the posters there is almost a "religious" aspect to their opposition. For many, it is a case that any interference in the free market is heresy; for others, it arises because the EU is involved.
 

Asparagus

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Just for your info, cutting PS pay by 20% would net about 2.4 billion euro. That does not even cover the interest repayments on one bank.

We don't have a PS pay problem we have a busted banking system problem.
We have both - The deficit proves that.
Instead the government will pull non pay expenditure to save public servants.

2.4 billion per year for 3 years is 7.2 Billion

Nuke the banks, reduce the wage bill (incl 20% reduction on dole), cut out the quangos and we'll be back on an even keel before you can say "Jail the economic traitors"

for what its worth i don't think that a flat cut is necessary - i would have the C&AG audit each grade in terms of european competitiveness and readjust against the eu median.
 


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