Can people who disagree with bailout put forward valid benefits of opposing it?

macs magic

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you might as well be throwing bananas up o'connell street as trying to explain this.

On this site, any attempt to analyse a situation other than in terms of some 'magic wand' solution in which nobody suffers any pain and real debt can just be expunged by moving it around a spreadsheet means you are some sort of government 'shill', which apparently is the mot du jour.
here here
 


Expatriot

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You might as well be throwing bananas up O'Connell Street as trying to explain this.

On this site, any attempt to analyse a situation other than in terms of some 'magic wand' solution in which nobody suffers any pain and real debt can just be expunged by moving it around a spreadsheet means you are some sort of Government 'shill', which apparently is the mot du jour.

Are you trying to say that your solutions are painful, but fair and effective?

NAMA?

Bank Guarantee?

Cutting minimum Wage?

Letting IMF write our budgets?

Giving away pension fund to the banks?


There certainly are no magic wands powerful enough to undo the damage any of these decisions will cause this country in my opinion. As I understand your position you support all of these policies. These are decisions made by people like you, they did not just happen. It is not weather.

I disagree with you not because I do not understand what you are trying to do, but rather because I understand perfectly what you are up to.
 

king5494

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Your post is very stupid .Yet again we have "but there's no other option" It's this stupidity that has us here ,Lot's of options for the last 30 months but yet again the stupid one is been taken.

If you believe in right wing Capitalism , Why turn socialist thinking when it comes to the private banks.

The Irish depression is only at it's beginning and when more and more private loans car,house,business fail it will lead to more money going to pay the Exalted bond holders
and basically we have an economic cancer that will consume it's host while society will break down and a new dangerous reality will set in.

Europe is a failure and this economic failure is self fulfilling because of the political failure to think of it's people first and put the market's in primary position.

One has to think is "the economy there for its people" or are "the people there for the economy", if it is the latter then Europe and Capitalism is going to die a slow death and bring millions with it from the political failure to face up to it.
 

loaf

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You might as well be throwing bananas up O'Connell Street as trying to explain this.

On this site, any attempt to analyse a situation other than in terms of some 'magic wand' solution in which nobody suffers any pain and real debt can just be expunged by moving it around a spreadsheet means you are some sort of Government 'shill', which apparently is the mot du jour.
Analysing a situation is all very well, and can certainly provide you with a good idea of the options and the possible consequences of those options.

But at that point you have to make a political choice. No amount of 'analysing' will save you from that. This choice will have to be based on a moral judgement.

I never suggested there was a painless solution. I suggested there was a choice. It is the discreditting of this notion of choice that really depresses me about the government and media approach to this crisis.
 
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turdsl

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Listening to David Murphy interview Mr Chopra last night and the way he was treated with dignity, In every other country the IMF were hated, Lets hope Fianna Fail get the message that they are hated by 80% of the people for the disgrace they have brought on our country, The so called republican party handed over our sovereignty after 90 years of independence. The names of Bertie, McCreevy, Harney, Cowen and Lenihan will be remembered for a long time and it will not be in glory. 13 years of misrule have now left us with foreign bosses. Plenty of angry people up town today,
 

Expatriot

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King

If this system fails capitalism will not have failed, because this is not capitalism. Capitalism is brutal in many ways, but it is fair and functions in its own context. If we applied capitalism to the banks from day one(start of the euro) we would not be here now.

This is not capitalism and the elite cannot now demand capitalism be forced on the weak with any moral authority.
 

king5494

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To put the whole thing in perspective YOU CAN'T BE CAPITALIST WHEN IT COMES TO PROFITS AND SOCIALIST WHEN IT COMES TO LOSSES.

The whole lot will bloody fail so stop trying to come up with a new paradigm to explain yourselves .You and everyone else knows it's doomed to failure.

Try and be rational and cop on to the fact we're being screwed.
 

Watch The Break

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What comes to mind when I read a lot of stuff on here is just what would it take for people to do something?

In order to save private enterprises, who took massive risks without ever consulting us:

- we have taken on debt of over €60 billion, all of which will be paid for by the Irish public,

- we have had to pilfer our National Reserve Pension Fund,

- we have to offer our national assets up to be stripped from us,

- we have had to agree to interest rates which most commentators agree we can't meet,

- we have surrender control of national affairs to external and unaccountable bodies.

So the question is this, just how much more could they do to us before some people would think about opposing them?

Would a higher interest rate do it? Would suspension of democracy do it?

I think there's a lot of people who would do nothing regardless of how much they did. And they'll continue to rationalise their inaction, regardless of how unjust the situation is, and they'll primarily use the rationale of the people screwing us to do it. Sure who knows, it mightn't affect them personally, and sure isn't that all you'd want.
 

king5494

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King

If this system fails capitalism will not have failed, because this is not capitalism. Capitalism is brutal in many ways, but it is fair and functions in its own context. If we applied capitalism to the banks from day one(start of the euro) we would not be here now.

This is not capitalism and the elite cannot now demand capitalism be forced on the weak with any moral authority.
I agree pure Capitalism is not this but they're convinced it is and being rational the people will revolt against all Capitalism when this bull fails and want something else that's of benefit to us humans and not to digits within a computer.
 
D

Deleted member 17573

What comes to mind when I read a lot of stuff on here is just what would it take for people to do something?In order to save private enterprises, who took massive risks without ever consulting us:

- we have taken on debt of over €60 billion, all of which will be paid for by the Irish public,

- we have had to pilfer our National Reserve Pension Fund,

- we have to offer our national assets up to be stripped from us,

- we have had to agree to interest rates which most commentators agree we can't meet,

- we have surrender control of national affairs to external and unaccountable bodies.

So the question is this, just how much more could they do to us before some people would think about opposing them?

Would a higher interest rate do it? Would suspension of democracy do it?

I think there's a lot of people who would do nothing regardless of how much they did. And they'll continue to rationalise their inaction, regardless of how unjust the situation is, and they'll primarily use the rationale of the people screwing us to do it. Sure who knows, it mightn't affect them personally, and sure isn't that all you'd want.
To answer that first question you need to first establish what people really want. A fairer society? A more equal distribution of wealth? A decent health service for all? Sorry but I don´t believe this is the true cause of all the anger - the sad reality is that what would make us all happy again is a restoration of property values, a maintenance of low interest rates, easily accessible credit etc - in a word the good old Celtic Tiger. I have, for example, heard lots of calls for debt forgiveness - from people up to their necks in negative equity who now realise the idiocy of their actions in the property market - but has anybody suggested any meaningful protest like a mortgage payment botcott when the banks bung up their rates? No, the country that gave us the very word "boycott" has become preoccupied with middle-class aspirations.
 

goosebump

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Your post is very stupid .Yet again we have "but there's no other option" It's this stupidity that has us here ,Lot's of options for the last 30 months but yet again the stupid one is been taken.
All of the options put forward to date have been premised on the idea of not honouring the senior debt in the banks. Time and again, this option has been shown to be impossible without engendering a far greater crisis in terms of deposits and the general stability of our banks, as the market reaction of last Friday clearly demonstrates.

Yet, this basically reality has been consistently ignored, and even now, when the ECB, the IMF, the UK and the EU Commission have confirmed that this is not an option, we still have the usual suspects running around ranting about 'burning the bondholders'.

If you believe in right wing Capitalism , Why turn socialist thinking when it comes to the private banks.
This is not a question of morals or idealogy. Its a simple question of which option produces the least hardship.

When you need a lot of money to protect the most vulnerable in your society, welching on debts owed to the only people who are willing to lend you money is economic suicide.
 

Padraigin

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"All of the options put forward to date have been premised on the idea of not honouring the senior debt in the banks. Time and again, this option has been shown to be impossible without engendering a far greater crisis in terms of deposits and the general stability of our banks, as the market reaction of last Friday clearly demonstrates.

Yet, this basically reality has been consistently ignored, and even now, when the ECB, the IMF, the UK and the EU Commission have confirmed that this is not an option, we still have the usual suspects running around ranting about 'burning the bondholders'."


What kind of nonsense is this? Senior bondholders always absorb losses when one of their investments goes south. People who purchase bonds are investors. They take investment risks every time they purchase a security - whether stocks or bonds. These are big boys. They know that they are taking risks with their money. That is what makes them investors. They risk their money so they are entitled to profits when things turn out well, because if things go bad, they are going to be taking a loss. This is normal financial activity. Bond holders lose their money when investments go bad. End of.

However, nobody likes to lose money, so if they can persuade some morons - such as those in the Irish government - to pay for a normal investment loss, then they will try to do it.

Most governments would laugh at the boldfaced audacity of such a proposal.... and wish the bond holders luck as they try to recover their losses from the assets of the failed banks.

No normal five-year-old could be fooled into taking on an obligation to pay for someone else's loss .... which tells you a lot about the insane gullibility (or corruption) of the Irish government.
 

king5494

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all of the options put forward to date have been premised on the idea of not honouring the senior debt in the banks. Time and again, this option has been shown to be impossible without engendering a far greater crisis in terms of deposits and the general stability of our banks, as the market reaction of last friday clearly demonstrates.

Yet, this basically reality has been consistently ignored, and even now, when the ecb, the imf, the uk and the eu commission have confirmed that this is not an option, we still have the usual suspects running around ranting about 'burning the bondholders'.



This is not a question of morals or idealogy. Its a simple question of which option produces the least hardship.

When you need a lot of money to protect the most vulnerable in your society, welching on debts owed to the only people who are willing to lend you money is economic suicide.
it's not our bloody loan to welch on .yes to sovereign debt no to private bank debt.
 

Expatriot

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All of the options put forward to date have been premised on the idea of not honouring the senior debt in the banks. Time and again, this option has been shown to be impossible without engendering a far greater crisis in terms of deposits and the general stability of our banks, as the market reaction of last Friday clearly demonstrates.

Yet, this basically reality has been consistently ignored, and even now, when the ECB, the IMF, the UK and the EU Commission have confirmed that this is not an option, we still have the usual suspects running around ranting about 'burning the bondholders'.



This is not a question of morals or idealogy. Its a simple question of which option produces the least hardship.

When you need a lot of money to protect the most vulnerable in your society, welching on debts owed to the only people who are willing to lend you money is economic suicide.
You see that is exactly what it is. It is a question of morals. It is a question of fairness. You cannot play by one set of rules and then immediately change the game when you lose. That is what people feel the elite in this society have done. They do not go bankrupt, do not repay their debts, do not have their home taken and do not face the law for breaking it.

It is all very well taking a pragmatic approach to these things, but you might find that everyone else decides to take a similar pragmatic approach towards debt, the law and fellow citizens. Why would any of the rest us up hold our end of the social bargain when those leading don't?

Most of us now feel we owe little to this country, it feels like a sham. And for someone like me that passionately believed in it that is very hard to take. If this state is not about morality and ideology then it is about nothing and deserves no support from any of us. It is merely an economic unit like a company or bank account.
 

voodoochile

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This "bailout" makes default (both sovereign and banking debt) an inevitability. Default on the banks now. Make those foolish enough to have invested in them, i.e. bondholders and the ECB bear the cost of their actions. Why prolong the process?

Yeah, it'll be armagedddon for a while, but the citizens of this country will be free of crippling debt which was not incurred by them.........

Anyways, even AJ Chopra left open the possibility of the restructuring of the bank debt on Morning Ireland this morning. He knows what's coming, even if the Europeans don't.
 
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Expatriot

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This "bailout" makes default (both sovereign and banking debt) an inevitability. Default on the banks now. Make those foolish enough to have invested in them, i.e. bondholders and the ECB bear the cost of their actions. Why prolong the process?

Yeah, it'll be armagedddon for a while, but the citizens of this country will be free of crippling debt which was not incurred by them.........
I don't know, I think they have a lot invested in the current status quo so they just keep kicking the can down the road hoping something will turn up. Maybe it will. Even if growth takes off and unemployment goes very low again I will always think this bank policy was rotten. I hope the plan in some form does work now, we have no alternative. These debates are historic at this stage. The dye is cast.
 

voodoochile

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Declan Ganley: A tale of 2 Irishmen..........Bob Geldof did Band Aid, Brian Cowen did "BOND AID".

I suppose that sums it up really........
 

supermonkey

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Nuke the banks, reduce the wage bill (incl 20% reduction on dole)
Why cut the dole. 75% of those on the dole today weren't on the dole two years ago.
Just cut PS wages and burn the banks if these zombie banks are gone than the whining about mortgages will be unsupportable because the mortgage on a family home could be restructured.

The govt didn't touch the PS because they want their votes in 2017. They'll probably get them.
 

Newsy

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You are a complete idiot. When the full figure is in, we won't have a hope of paying it back. We are going to go through 3 years of pain before the realisation that this has solved nothing, and we will still probably have to default, or get massive debt forgiveness.
Exactly.

I would give it about 12/18 months.

Anyone who thinks that this is going to 'help' us (short-term, correct) is fooling themselves and not being realistic.

Our economy is being chocked of oxygen. We are on very limited time.

This isn't a 'bailout'. It is a 'sellout'.
 

an innocent abroad

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This is not a bailout! This is a stitchup! Why are our so called eu partners profiteering from the other stitchup our government done to us with the guarantee? Let those who played, pay!
 


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