Can social justice be redeemed?

silverharp

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It doesn't need to be "redeemed". No one who uses the phrase "social justice warrior" with a straight face deserves to be taken seriously in the first place.
you are just irritated that less people care about your micro aggressions and racist Halloween costumes 'n sh11t. it was fun while it lasted but the most useless academics and students were making far too much noise
 


Hunter-Gatherer

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'social justice' people see society as the whole planet. Even those knackers on the other side of the planet with the kalashnikov and no education.
 

statsman

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Ok...dismiss it if you will. But the reality is that for many people existential issues trump those of social justice. Social justice must begin by ensuring that the bottom rungs of the hierarchy exist for all. Otherwise it becomes a vanity project for elites.
But there is on single bottom run for everyone. And Maslow is not universally accepted as valid. It's very much of it's time, there's almost no evidence to support it (or any hierarchical model of needs) and it's also very much based in an American view of the world.

Needs are not hierarchical or fixed, they are dynamic, fluid and interactive. Life is messy, not neat.
 

GDPR

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From a man who has benefitted from social justice campaigns, you have some cheek.
No he has basic cop on; Southern Irish people are among the most tolerant in the world and he realizes that flooding the country with people from instinctively intolerant cultures could work out rather nastily for him and people like him. Also working class homosexuals dont live in glorious isolation from the rest of the community.
 

Kevin Parlon

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I don't think I could be honest about facts and not declare my own relationship with the advancement of social justice.
Right. That's not what I was getting at. What I am saying is that whatever is true about the merits or otherwise of any political endeavour cannot depend on who one is. My initial comment is that political discourse is not helped by the routine inclusion of one's identity. Either the "social justice" movement is good or it isn't. But whatever it is, its reality cannot be altered by who you happen to be.
 

GDPR

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you are just irritated that less people care about your micro aggressions and racist Halloween costumes 'n sh11t. it was fun while it lasted but the most useless academics and students were making far too much noise
I think a lot of this nonsense has been about Capitalists trying to totally discredit the Humanities in order to make Universities solely about helping them make money.
 

silverharp

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I think a lot of this nonsense has been about Capitalists trying to totally discredit the Humanities in order to make Universities solely about helping them make money.
they discredited themselves, essentially a bunch of entitled upper middle class twats who didn't have the intelligence to make it into the STEM departments and indoctrinated in Marxist ideas wanted to crate a market for themselves funded by the taxpayer or any stupid media outfit willing to hire them
 

Kevin Parlon

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I think a lot of this nonsense has been about Capitalists trying to totally discredit the Humanities in order to make Universities solely about helping them make money.
The Sokal Hoax - Wikipedia

Actually, it was a physicist who did more to discredit social studies by allowing them to discredit themselves. Quite magnificently, I should add.
 

Rightist

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One notable aspect of political conversations on social media is the advent of the pejorative term "social justice warrior", with the implication being that the doctrine has become associated with esoteric navel-gazing and excessive political correctness, rather than concrete societal policies. Still, the various social problems prevalent in this country, such as homelessness, the spread of food banks, child poverty, and the monetisation of health services allow offer avenues for redemption of the concept, with the theoretical backing of Amartya Sen and Thomas Piketty among others. If social justice is capable of resuscitation, could it become the political salvation of the left?
"Social Justice" term is another semantic trick of left. Look at this problem closer.
There is two part : " Social " and "Justice".
It is very important thing to ask one question.
Is it "Social Justice" is still "Justice"?
If you ad any adjective to word "justice" you have to accept that "adj justice" in certain areas will be unjust.
Now is a question: Can justice be unjust ?
 

silverharp

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The Sokal Hoax - Wikipedia

Actually, it was a physicist who did more to discredit social studies by allowing them to discredit themselves. Quite magnificently, I should add.
it didn't kill it though, still a lot of post modernist garbage coming out of gender studies departments
 

Kevin Parlon

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it didn't kill it though, still a lot of post modernist garbage coming out of gender studies departments
It's not renowned for its amenability to reason.
 

GDPR

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they discredited themselves, essentially a bunch of entitled upper middle class twats who didn't have the intelligence to make it into the STEM departments and indoctrinated in Marxist ideas wanted to crate a market for themselves funded by the taxpayer or any stupid media outfit willing to hire them
I admit that I havent made a serious study of Marx, my area of expertise is Late Anquity, but I have read enough of him to know that Mercurial is thoroughly Un-Marxian never mind a Marxist. The only person on this forum who appears to have gotten heavily into Marx's work on this forum is Taigh who Merc is incapable of engaging with and finds "a very bad man". Before him the two people I have come across who were actually very much intellectually involved in Marx's writings as opposed to just calling themselves Marxists were a girl in the Syrian Social Nationalist Party and a French lad who could be described as a Revolutionary Conservative; Merc lad would consider both of them beyond of the pale of acceptibility. Marx had a biting, very "Un-PC" biting sarcastic wit which would horrify the snowflakes of our own time.

No it is that demon from the abyss John Stuart Mill's thought rather than that of Marx from which the SWJs flow.
 

Cellachán Chaisil

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I am surprised that some people I know are very careful about the vocabulary they used when referring to different stages on the gender spectrum, but have no issue going to exclusivist social clubs or referring to people from disadvantaged backgrounds with derogatory terms.
 
D

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Who decides what's 'bigger' on the scales of injustice?
Is being discriminated against because of your skin colour or social class 'bigger' than being discriminated against because of your gender or your sexual preferences, for example?
I can see how I could be interpreted that way. The smart arsed answer would be, "You'd have to ask the champions of those causes."

Where I was going with it was that in the identity politics that has been prevalent in recent times, politicians and commentators latch on to smaller (with regard to % of population) issues because they're easier to tackle and garner notoriety, rather than go after the more complicated and less easily solved bigger societal problems.

I'm not saying that the smaller injustices don't also need to be addressed, but to solely focus on these niche issues while neglecting the broader problems is like bringing the tide in one bucket at a time.
 

captain obvious

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But there is on single bottom run for everyone. And Maslow is not universally accepted as valid. It's very much of it's time, there's almost no evidence to support it (or any hierarchical model of needs) and it's also very much based in an American view of the world.

Needs are not hierarchical or fixed, they are dynamic, fluid and interactive. Life is messy, not neat.
I agree that as a model it is not perfect, as the old saying goes, "all models are wrong but some are useful".
I think there is a single bottom rung for everyone since without adequate sustenance and security all other needs are moot as they cannot be fulfilled; there is no point in fighting self-actualization issues if you are starving to death.

Where a political movement starts fighting esteem and self-actualization causes whilst substantial numbers of the population are concerned with more fundamental needs you get the kind of disconnect we have seen in the UK and the US. It is no coincidence that the states that voted for Trump are strongly correlated with poverty and food stamp issuance. To accuse these people of having supremacist tendencies because they reject the immediacy of more privileged needs is arrogance.
 

raspberry tea

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No the virtue signallers and gender fluid hipsters cannot redeem themselves, we know the truth - these are career socialists, they like to dip their toes in every now and again but don't like to get burned, they typically do not live a mile within a working class area, and prefer the middle class suburbs and preach from their ivory tower on the virtues of being a rabid fem open doors leftist, their roots are in anarchy, and they dont care about the wanton destruction they leave behind in our communities,cheap labour,socialism that OTHER working people have to pay for, where does it all end?Socialism of course suits the elites,as for all this socialism we have to beg to the elites for more,MORE money,and pay them back in either a. X 3 times the amount in money back or b. they get to eye up our resources,ie like water...So when i think of parties like AAA, i just think more Austerity, Austerity, Austerity, because that is the truth!
 

statsman

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I can see how I could be interpreted that way. The smart arsed answer would be, "You'd have to ask the champions of those causes."

Where I was going with it was that in the identity politics that has been prevalent in recent times, politicians and commentators latch on to smaller (with regard to % of population) issues because they're easier to tackle and garner notoriety, rather than go after the more complicated and less easily solved bigger societal problems.

I'm not saying that the smaller injustices don't also need to be addressed, but to solely focus on these niche issues while neglecting the broader problems is like bringing the tide in one bucket at a time.
WFT is 'identity politics'? Seriously, it's just one of those right-wing snarl terms with no real meaning.
 
D

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WFT is 'identity politics'? Seriously, it's just one of those right-wing snarl terms with no real meaning.
It does have a meaning. It was coined during the civil rights movements of the last century. It has become a "snarl" because of how precise - to the point of exclusion - the identities have become. A case of not seeing the forest for the trees.
 

Cellachán Chaisil

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I think Lyndon B Johnson put it best (as dodgy as his SJ credentials were) when it comes to be relationship between social inequality and economic inequality:

"If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you."

The existence of one allows for the prevalence of another.
 
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