Can the West face down Putin?

roc_

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Guardian 11/10/2016 | West must confront Russia over Aleppo, emergency Commons debate to hear

I'm not too sure.

a. Bush most of all compromised US power by his decisions and failure in Iraq. The general acceptance of US as the world's foremost power subsequently lost a lot of legitimacy.

b. Obama compounded that by his policies of non-confrontation and minimum intervention, which allowed other imperialist ambitions make massive in-roads.

c. Massive inroads have also been made through internet propaganda to win "hearts and minds" of the more susceptible and gullible sections of Western society, particularly the young, by those harbouring imperialist ambitions in our world.

... Whatever your views about the US, since WW2 it has been the existence of a single inviolable power that has comprised the basis for relative peace in our world since. (No doubt pre world war two it was a well defined "balance of powers" that formed that basis.)

My opinion would be that the US usually quite effectively lived up to its duty as the world power since WW2. However I wonder is that period now ending.

Any transition to a new "equilibrium" can only mean a period of war to my mind.

What do people think will happen in this regard?
 


Dame_Enda

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The West is woefully unprepared to do so. Putin recently merged certain agencies to allow him to coordinate media, trade and security forces. As an EU official said recently we have nothing like it. Dictatorships can make decisions quickly 27 EU states with separate foreign policies and only a notional "common foreign and security policy" subject to unanimity cannot. There is also no real forward positioning to deter the potential attack on Finland, whom Putin has repeatedly threatened not to join NATO. Finland signed a security cooperation agreement with the US a few days ago.
 

GDPR

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You mean you'd like Russia to stop situating itself near to NATO bases?
 

Dame_Enda

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You mean you'd like Russia to stop situating itself near to NATO bases?
The numbers of Russian troops on its borders utterly dwarf anything the US has there. NATO exercises at most in Eastern Europe were about 40,000, whereas in 2014 Russian military exercises in Southern Russia were around 250,000.

Best thing to do is intensify the sanctions, especially regarding the Liechtenstein r India elated loopholes I have heard about. India should be pressured to join the sanctions as should Turkey.
 

GDPR

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b. Obama compounded that by his policies of non-confrontation and minimum intervention, which allowed other imperialist ambitions make massive in-roads.
Obama armed, funded and provided air support to Al Qaeda and ISIS in Libya and Syria, allowing the Jihadists to expand their imperial ambitions massively.
 

GDPR

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The numbers of Russian troops on its borders utterly dwarf anything the US has there. NATO exercises at most in Eastern Europe were about 40,000, whereas in 2014 Russian military exercises in Southern Russia were around 250,000.
And every single one of them on Russia territory. If only we could say they same for the Yanks :roll:
 

sadcitizen

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Absolutely disgusting. We've all seen it at least 3 times in our lifetime now. The usual flags are starting to fly which signal yet another war instigated by the US and UK.

It's amazing how quickly the flags start flying, only occurring after the Russians installed air-defences in the region. Which they did as a response to the US bombing Syrians during a ceasefire.
 

roc_

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You mean you'd like Russia to stop situating itself near to NATO bases?
Whatever. NATO bases have a certain legitimacy. Putin's actions have another kind of "legitimacy" and/or rationales I suppose you could say. But it's a question of power first and foremost. I wonder could we talk about it without descending down the usual tribalistic dead-ends.
 

silverharp

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The Russian economy is around the same size as Italy and they don't like ISIS. the biggest threat to Europe is US foreign policy. I don't buy painting Russia as some global bogeyman.
 

roc_

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The Russian economy is around the same size as Italy and they don't like ISIS. the biggest threat to Europe is US foreign policy. I don't buy painting Russia as some global bogeyman.
Well a close examination of her actions this last 15 years or so have been fairly unambiguous in revealing her intent I would have said.
 

GDPR

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Whatever. NATO bases have a certain legitimacy. Putin's actions have another kind of "legitimacy" and/or rationales I suppose you could say. But it's a question of power first and foremost. I wonder could we talk about it without descending down the usual tribalistic dead-ends.
Your OP assumes that "the West" is a tribe who is against Russia. That is not the case. Putin is extremely popular among Western Europeans, who see him as a bastion of European Christian civilization. One poll in the UK put Putin as favourite to be British Prime Minister.

https://www.sott.net/article/308810-4-out-of-5-Brits-prefer-Putin-over-Cameron-as-UK-leader-in-reader-poll
 

GDPR

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Well a close examination of her actions this last 15 years or so have been fairly unambiguous in revealing her intent I would have said.
Russia's intent is to live in peace and security. Sadly, we cannot say the same of the EU and the US régime.
 

eoghanacht

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Don't suppose roc will be starting a thread on the war crimes of the KSA in Yemen.

Course not he's happy to use war crimes for his pro Israeli agenda.

Israel and the KSA friends with benefits.

Can anybody point out anything in particular that Putin has done that the US/UK or any of its allies hasn't done, he's a dictator in all but name, they're not known for their humanitarian streak.

Where the "freedom and democracy" exporters behave just as bad all under the guise of well, freedom and democracy.
 

Erudite Caveman

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The West has a lot on it's mind these days, and Putin has just one thing on his, and he is playing a blinder. Ultimately though, there is only so much to be gained in the first phase his strategy, which is to leverage Russian military power to make the folks at home proud of mother Russia again. Once he has achieved that, and is well on his way, what does he hope to do next? How does he manage to make Russians better off? That bit isn't clear. There is no point in repeating the past and being strong militarily but unable to sustain it because of a poor economy.
 

mossyman

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It is also important to remember that Russia has seen its country devastated by invasions coming from the West a few times in its history, so the fact that in 2014 Russian military exercises in Southern Russia were around 250,000 should not be a surprise.
 

Toland

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The West has a lot on it's mind these days, and Putin has just one thing on his, and he is playing a blinder. Ultimately though, there is only so much to be gained in the first phase his strategy, which is to leverage Russian military power to make the folks at home proud of mother Russia again. Once he has achieved that, and is well on his way, what does he hope to do next? How does he manage to make Russians better off? That bit isn't clear. There is no point in repeating the past and being strong militarily but unable to sustain it because of a poor economy.
The oil price is slowly on the way back up. That might help.
 


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