Can there be disciplined water conservation without water charges, contrary to economic pricing theory?

Mad as Fish

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An alternative would be a reward system where you get subsidised for using less water, with either tax cuts or top ups to sw.
Install and maintain meters to give money to people you mean? Why don't we just scrap them and IW altogether and enjoy the reduced tax burden?

Anyway, it still hasn't been decided just how much further water conservation should go. What would you say is a reasonable target and why?
 


Mad as Fish

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The original plan is so dead it isn't funny anymore.

De bais have been negotiating about water charges for a number of weeks now.

We are expecting a brand new revised plan, oh, any week now.

Apparently it will include generous allowances per house and lots and lots of people will be exempt.


I thought you knew all this!

Aren't you FG?
You've got to laugh at their idiocy. If a great swath of users are not to be charged then why bother going to the expense of charging anyone? They may think it looks good and buys votes but it simply confirms just how stupid the whole IW farce has become.
 
D

Deleted member 34656

You've got to laugh at their idiocy. If a great swath of users are not to be charged then why bother going to the expense of charging anyone? They may think it looks good and buys votes but it simply confirms just how stupid the whole IW farce has become.
I'm beyond laughing at it now Mad, it's gone on for several years and we apparently haven't had a government for over a month because of this completely thick issue which it now appears hasn't been discussed at all, not really.

The Gordon Gekkos are still loaded and some gobshyte who'd rather check who lives where and count drips of water than work in an airport in the west of Ireland is calling the shots.
 

Mad as Fish

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I'm beyond laughing at it now Mad, it's gone on for several years and we apparently haven't had a government for over a month because of this completely thick issue which it now appears hasn't been discussed at all, not really.

The Gordon Gekkos are still loaded and some gobshyte who'd rather check who lives where and count drips of water than work in an airport in the west of Ireland is calling the shots.
Aye, I know where you are coming from and I feel myself that there is more behind the creation of IW than just collecting charges and managing the system, it would have been dropped by now if that was the case.

The only comfort is that there are a great many people more angry than ever at the charade, it's not a question of a bit of smothie chop PR will see the objections quelled, it goes a lot deeper than that. Today I came across the original IW 'application pack' that was sent out with all the forms to be filled and a tidy little booklet about IW. My blood boiled, what sort of fookin brass neck and presumptuousness made them think that I was going to jump through their wretched hoops so they could charge me for what I was already paying for out of taxes!! Jesus wept, that was a taste of their attitude and PR blunders to come and we were not disappointed by the constant parade of ineptitude and arrogance they have granted us since. My very soul is set against the imposition of charges in a way that I would hardly have considered credible just two short years ago.
 
D

Deleted member 34656

Aye, I know where you are coming from and I feel myself that there is more behind the creation of IW than just collecting charges and managing the system, it would have been dropped by now if that was the case.

The only comfort is that there are a great many people more angry than ever at the charade, it's not a question of a bit of smothie chop PR will see the objections quelled, it goes a lot deeper than that. Today I came across the original IW 'application pack' that was sent out with all the forms to be filled and a tidy little booklet about IW. My blood boiled, what sort of fookin brass neck and presumptuousness made them think that I was going to jump through their wretched hoops so they could charge me for what I was already paying for out of taxes!! Jesus wept, that was a taste of their attitude and PR blunders to come and we were not disappointed by the constant parade of ineptitude and arrogance they have granted us since. My very soul is set against the imposition of charges in a way that I would hardly have considered credible just two short years ago.
What pisses most people off, I think, is the idea that our highly educated workforce is only acceptable if it moves to Dublin.

You can be sure that the much worshipped Google and Facebook employ people who graduated from Limerick and Sligo and Waterford.

But they won't base themselves in any of those places.

Why?

Are they bigots?

Or are dubliners deeply insecure and insular?

Why do global companies want to employ such provincial types?
 

venusian

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Aye, I know where you are coming from and I feel myself that there is more behind the creation of IW than just collecting charges and managing the system, it would have been dropped by now if that was the case.

The only comfort is that there are a great many people more angry than ever at the charade, it's not a question of a bit of smothie chop PR will see the objections quelled, it goes a lot deeper than that. Today I came across the original IW 'application pack' that was sent out with all the forms to be filled and a tidy little booklet about IW. My blood boiled, what sort of fookin brass neck and presumptuousness made them think that I was going to jump through their wretched hoops so they could charge me for what I was already paying for out of taxes!! Jesus wept, that was a taste of their attitude and PR blunders to come and we were not disappointed by the constant parade of ineptitude and arrogance they have granted us since. My very soul is set against the imposition of charges in a way that I would hardly have considered credible just two short years ago.
Rotten FG/"labour" whose bizarre ongoing desire to keep the sleazy and corrupt "Irish Water" in operation can only mean certain FG/"labour" politicians must be corruptly enriching themselves from the whole sleazy farce. We really need good investigate journalists instead of the owned D.O'B media to investigate just why FG/"labour" are behaving like crazed tax sucking parasites that won't budge an inch on "Irish Water" despite having no electoral mandate to do so!

Fine Gael have again been exposed as two faced lying hypocrites and I don't blame any of the honest decent Independent TD's rejecting any of their offers to support them in government. Despite all of Fine Gael's lies and talk about a new way of doing politics and new ways of doing Dáil business, Fine Gael's argument about "Irish Water" shows how shallow and what a pack of liars Fine Gael are.

A full majority of Dáil TDs were elected on platforms that called for the abolition of water charges, 44 Fianna Fáil (one of whom is now the Ceann Comhairle), 23 Sinn Féin TD's, 3 People Before Profit/Anti-Austerity Alliance, and 7 left of centre Independents (Tommy Broughan, Catherine Connolly, Joan Collins, Clare Daly, Séamus Healy, Thomas Pringle and Mick Wallace). That’s a clear Democratically elected majority of Dáil members, before we even look at the other Independents or the Social Democrats. It is clearly completely undemocratic to ignore the declared will of the people on this issue, and the disgusting antics of the Blue$hit Fine Gaeler's cannot hide that fact!

It's about time either Fine Gael drops its corrupt support for "Irish Water" or we have another election!
 

patslatt

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The water system needs serious upgrading, I believe all agree on this..
But how do we do it?

I believe a central body (call it what you will) makes sense.
But making that body something like the ESB or An Bord Gais, is not good.
These 2 semi states cost us a small fortune.
Back in 2011 when the country was gong through some seriously hard times, these (semi private) quangos didn't help one iota. They kept raising prices ( and their top peoples salaries?) irregardless of the state of many of their 'customers'.


Many people would have accepted a pay cut, if there was some indication that there would be a cut in the cost of living.


But instead people took pay cuts while the cost of.... electricity, gas, bins and landlines, all went up.
POLITICAL SCREWING OF TAXPAYERS

ESB had been subsidising consumer electricity charges at the expense of commercial charges. Elimination of the consumer subsidy explains a lot of the price increases. That said, ESB workers are vastly overpaid and overpensioned, like most electric utilities workers internationally, because of their power to shut down economies in a strike. The Mafia would love to have that power!

Bin charges were rigged to pay for massive redundancies of council bin workers.

Eircom's privatisation deliberately included a weak regulatory control of its prices. That was exploited to pay massive redundancies to staff as labour intensive analogue phone lines were phased out for centralised digital computerised exchanges. THat was the price for privatisation negotiated by Bertie's union pals. Most media failed to notice the con.

Gas prices spiked with the spike in oil prices. Have consumer gas prices fallen since the oil price crash?
 
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patslatt

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Rotten FG/"labour" whose bizarre ongoing desire to keep the sleazy and corrupt "Irish Water" in operation can only mean certain FG/"labour" politicians must be corruptly enriching themselves from the whole sleazy farce. We really need good investigate journalists instead of the owned D.O'B media to investigate just why FG/"labour" are behaving like crazed tax sucking parasites that won't budge an inch on "Irish Water" despite having no electoral mandate to do so!

Fine Gael have again been exposed as two faced lying hypocrites and I don't blame any of the honest decent Independent TD's rejecting any of their offers to support them in government. Despite all of Fine Gael's lies and talk about a new way of doing politics and new ways of doing Dáil business, Fine Gael's argument about "Irish Water" shows how shallow and what a pack of liars Fine Gael are.

A full majority of Dáil TDs were elected on platforms that called for the abolition of water charges, 44 Fianna Fáil (one of whom is now the Ceann Comhairle), 23 Sinn Féin TD's, 3 People Before Profit/Anti-Austerity Alliance, and 7 left of centre Independents (Tommy Broughan, Catherine Connolly, Joan Collins, Clare Daly, Séamus Healy, Thomas Pringle and Mick Wallace). That’s a clear Democratically elected majority of Dáil members, before we even look at the other Independents or the Social Democrats. It is clearly completely undemocratic to ignore the declared will of the people on this issue, and the disgusting antics of the Blue$hit Fine Gaeler's cannot hide that fact!

It's about time either Fine Gael drops its corrupt support for "Irish Water" or we have another election!
POPULIST BULL

Electioneering against water charges was populist bull. Irish Water's launch was a valid reform that was simply bungled by bad political handling as well as a backroom deal to avoid redundancies indefinitely. Politically, the government failed to realise that eventually their huge tax grabs and stealth taxes would go too far.

Opposition to water charges is really a subconscious tax revolt by another name. THe government could have overcome the simplistic and foolish opposition to the concept of water charges by earmarking a tax cut equal to the spending on water services funded out of general taxation. For instance, a cut in the very high VAT tax would have placated the public.

An education program was needed to inform the public of the huge investment of billions needed to replace Victorian era water facilities, since many Irish have a simplistic notion that high Irish rainfall should mean free water.. The investment simply can't be raised from income taxes now at levels among the highest in the EU for a welfare state that is poor value for money in health care,public housing and day care services.

Populist bull politicians will claim the rich can pay,ignoring the facts that Irish capital gains tax of 33% are the highest in Europe and top marginal income tax rates of 52% make it very difficult to attract American and foreign executives to work for multinationals in Ireland. If Ireland had an economy based on the indigeneous business class instead of multinationals, income taxes could be raised. However, in the past high income taxes and capital gains txes discouraged indigeneous businesses.

AS for a wealth tax, apart from efficient property taxes, wealth taxes are idiotic, very expensive to collect and have been abandoned by most countries. Only political parties that like to stir up class envy favour them or pretend to eg Sinn Fein, People Before Profit
 
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Mad as Fish

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POPULIST BULL

Electioneering against water charges was populist bull. Irish Water's launch was a valid reform that was simply bungled by bad political handling as well as a backroom deal to avoid redundancies indefinitely. Politically, the government failed to realise that eventually their huge tax grabs and stealth taxes would go too far.

Opposition to water charges is really a subconscious tax revolt by another name. THe government could have overcome the simplistic and foolish opposition to the concept of water charges by earmarking a tax cut equal to the spending on water services funded out of general taxation. For instance, a cut in the very high VAT tax would have placated the public.

An education program was needed to inform the public of the huge investment of billions needed to replace Victorian era water facilities, since many Irish have a simplistic notion that high Irish rainfall should mean free water.. The investment simply can't be raised from income taxes now at levels among the highest in the EU for a welfare state that is poor value for money in health care,public housing and day care services.

Populist bull politicians will claim the rich can pay,ignoring the facts that Irish capital gains tax of 33% are the highest in Europe and top marginal income tax rates of 52% make it very difficult to attract American and foreign executives to work for multinationals in Ireland. If Ireland had an economy based on the indigeneous business class instead of multinationals, income taxes could be raised. However, in the past high income taxes and capital gains txes discouraged indigeneous businesses.

AS for a wealth tax, apart from efficient property taxes, wealth taxes are idiotic, very expensive to collect and have been abandoned by most countries. Only political parties that like to stir up class envy favour them or pretend to eg Sinn Fein, People Before Profit
That post is utter, total, complete PR bullsh!t in its entirety.

Tax revolt? Have you not read about what an inefficent waste of our money it is?

Education proramme? What an arrogant nasty minded little piece of thinking that is. Oh the plebs need educating do they? well you've already done that my friend, we get the message, loud and clear. When I hear that the public need educating I know for sure that we are being sold crap.

Populist bull? No, responding to voters wishes more like, if you don't like what the voters want then tough!

The rest is simple BS dressed up as highfalutin waffle.
 

Watcher2

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That post is utter, total, complete PR bullsh!t in its entirety.

Tax revolt? Have you not read about what an inefficent waste of our money it is?

Education proramme? What an arrogant nasty minded little piece of thinking that is. Oh the plebs need educating do they? well you've already done that my friend, we get the message, loud and clear. When I hear that the public need educating I know for sure that we are being sold crap.

Populist bull? No, responding to voters wishes more like, if you don't like what the voters want then tough!

The rest is simple BS dressed up as highfalutin waffle.
Explain then how so many of the water protesters trot out the tired old nugget of bewilderment at paying for water when so much of it falls for free.

And while we have many multinationals claiming Ireland as their base, why don't we have the top managers/leaders of those multinationals here?
 

Jim Car

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2,697
Much like your signature, complete and utter guff. Yer a fantasist, simple as that really.

Not one person would have left their taps on all night in victory. And this is from someone who finds the most infamous water protesters incorrigible.

Again, yer a fantasist and probably a schizophrenic who isn't taking his tablets
More facts in that signature then most, which is why it really pisses those on the far left off!
I don't really know what your trying to say about the water protests.
 

patslatt

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Apr 11, 2007
Messages
13,637
That post is utter, total, complete PR bullsh!t in its entirety.

Tax revolt? Have you not read about what an inefficent waste of our money it is?

Education proramme? What an arrogant nasty minded little piece of thinking that is. Oh the plebs need educating do they? well you've already done that my friend, we get the message, loud and clear. When I hear that the public need educating I know for sure that we are being sold crap.

Populist bull? No, responding to voters wishes more like, if you don't like what the voters want then tough!

The rest is simple BS dressed up as highfalutin waffle.
THe government should have an education programme on the need for water charges specially designed for people like you who think water magics itself from rainfall into your dwelling!
 

Peppermint

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Oct 1, 2010
Messages
7,590
POLITICAL SCREWING OF TAXPAYERS

ESB had been subsidising consumer electricity charges at the expense of commercial charges. Elimination of the consumer subsidy explains a lot of the price increases. That said, ESB workers are vastly overpaid and overpensioned, like most electric utilities workers internationally, because of their power to shut down economies in a strike. The Mafia would love to have that power!

Bin charges were rigged to pay for massive redundancies of council bin workers.

Eircom's privatisation deliberately included a weak regulatory control of its prices. That was exploited to pay massive redundancies to staff as labour intensive analogue phone lines were phased out for centralised digital computerised exchanges. THat was the price for privatisation negotiated by Bertie's union pals. Most media failed to notice the con.

Gas prices spiked with the spike in oil prices. Have consumer gas prices fallen since the oil price crash?

Are you happy with bin charges now?
They've been totally privatized?

So why are they such a mess?
 

greengoose2

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Joined
May 30, 2009
Messages
24,897
Are you happy with bin charges now?
They've been totally privatized?

So why are they such a mess?
There are three bin companies serving our 250 estate! How many of these companies exist countrywide?

From the DCC website:

Permit NumberNameWebsite
NWCPO-09-03628-01The City Bin Companywww.citybin.com
CP D735-05Greenstar Ltd. www.greenstar.ie
WCP-DC-08-0096-01The George Fellow (Enterprises) Ltd.www.ozo.ie
WCP-DC-08-1106-02Oxigen Environmental Ltd www.oxigen.ie
WCP-DC-08-1114-01Advanced Waste Recycling Ltd.www.advancedwaste.ie
WCP-DC-08-1149-01Pac-on Waste & Recycling Ltd.www.pacon.ie
WCP-DC-08-1151-01Lawlor Brothers (Waste Disposal) Ltd.www.accesswaste.com
WCP-DC-08-1154-01Greyhound Recycling & Recoverywww.greyhoundrecycling.com
WCP-DC-09-1156-01Key Waste Management Ltd.www.keywaste.ie
WCP-DC-09-1161-01Arneg Gate Ltd. HOME - Skiptrans Skip Hire
WCP-DC-09-1188-01Nurendale Ltd.www.panda.ie
WCP-DC-09-1190-01Padraig Thornton Waste Disposal Ltd. www.thorntonsrecycling.ie
WCP-DC-10-1252-01AMPM Property Services Ltd.www.ampm.ie
WCP-DC-10-1303-01Tag-A-Bin Ltd.www.tagabin.ie
WCP-DC-11-1365-01D & G Refuse Removal Ltd.

These guys are all making money. Will the water thing end up in the same way? [Redacted] might object... petunia
 
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patslatt

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Joined
Apr 11, 2007
Messages
13,637
There are three bin companies serving our 250 estate! How many of these companies exist countrywide?

From the DCC website:

Permit NumberNameWebsite
NWCPO-09-03628-01The City Bin Companywww.citybin.com
CP D735-05Greenstar Ltd. www.greenstar.ie
WCP-DC-08-0096-01The George Fellow (Enterprises) Ltd.www.ozo.ie
WCP-DC-08-1106-02Oxigen Environmental Ltd www.oxigen.ie
WCP-DC-08-1114-01Advanced Waste Recycling Ltd.www.advancedwaste.ie
WCP-DC-08-1149-01Pac-on Waste & Recycling Ltd.www.pacon.ie
WCP-DC-08-1151-01Lawlor Brothers (Waste Disposal) Ltd.www.accesswaste.com
WCP-DC-08-1154-01Greyhound Recycling & Recoverywww.greyhoundrecycling.com
WCP-DC-09-1156-01Key Waste Management Ltd.www.keywaste.ie
WCP-DC-09-1161-01Arneg Gate Ltd. HOME - Skiptrans Skip Hire
WCP-DC-09-1188-01Nurendale Ltd.www.panda.ie
WCP-DC-09-1190-01Padraig Thornton Waste Disposal Ltd. www.thorntonsrecycling.ie
WCP-DC-10-1252-01AMPM Property Services Ltd.www.ampm.ie
WCP-DC-10-1303-01Tag-A-Bin Ltd.www.tagabin.ie
WCP-DC-11-1365-01D & G Refuse Removal Ltd.

These guys are all making money. Will the water thing end up in the same way? [Redacted] might object... petunia
CONSOLIDATION
In the USA, a few big companies eventually dominated as large economies of scale favour takeovers. A bin collection truck that can work adjacent streets as opposed to skipping streets can work efficiently. Also, the big companies can develop efficient waste disposal facilities.
 

Watcher2

Well-known member
Joined
May 2, 2010
Messages
36,062
There are three bin companies serving our 250 estate! How many of these companies exist countrywide?

From the DCC website:

Permit NumberNameWebsite
NWCPO-09-03628-01The City Bin Companywww.citybin.com
CP D735-05Greenstar Ltd. www.greenstar.ie
WCP-DC-08-0096-01The George Fellow (Enterprises) Ltd.www.ozo.ie
WCP-DC-08-1106-02Oxigen Environmental Ltd www.oxigen.ie
WCP-DC-08-1114-01Advanced Waste Recycling Ltd.www.advancedwaste.ie
WCP-DC-08-1149-01Pac-on Waste & Recycling Ltd.www.pacon.ie
WCP-DC-08-1151-01Lawlor Brothers (Waste Disposal) Ltd.www.accesswaste.com
WCP-DC-08-1154-01Greyhound Recycling & Recoverywww.greyhoundrecycling.com
WCP-DC-09-1156-01Key Waste Management Ltd.www.keywaste.ie
WCP-DC-09-1161-01Arneg Gate Ltd. HOME - Skiptrans Skip Hire
WCP-DC-09-1188-01Nurendale Ltd.www.panda.ie
WCP-DC-09-1190-01Padraig Thornton Waste Disposal Ltd. www.thorntonsrecycling.ie
WCP-DC-10-1252-01AMPM Property Services Ltd.www.ampm.ie
WCP-DC-10-1303-01Tag-A-Bin Ltd.www.tagabin.ie
WCP-DC-11-1365-01D & G Refuse Removal Ltd.

These guys are all making money. Will the water thing end up in the same way? [Redacted] might object... petunia
Is it just me or do I count more than three?
 


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