Capitalism at its very worst

tsarbomb

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Mixed market capitalism is only a reflection of human nature. If unpalatable outcomes happen it is a poor reflection of human beings rather than of the capitalist system that they operate within. Capitalism, for all its faults, has resulted in the greatest increase in human standards of living and it should be celebrated for this.
 


Trainwreck

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Have you a link for that?
Here's you starter for 10:

Mao's Great Leap Forward 'killed 45 million in four years' | The Independent

Speaking at The Independent Woodstock Literary Festival, Frank Dikötter, a Hong Kong-based historian, said he found that during the time that Mao was enforcing the Great Leap Forward in 1958, in an effort to catch up with the economy of the Western world, he was responsible for overseeing "one of the worst catastrophes the world has ever known".

Mr Dikötter, who has been studying Chinese rural history from 1958 to 1962, when the nation was facing a famine, compared the systematic torture, brutality, starvation and killing of Chinese peasants to the Second World War in its magnitude. At least 45 million people were worked, starved or beaten to death in China over these four years;

And that is only discussing the Great Leap Forward. Stateman's paradise. I suppose that is what is called "distributing it to the masses"


Don't be lazy and do the rest of your research yourself.
 

Trainwreck

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Mixed market capitalism is only a reflection of human nature. If unpalatable outcomes happen it is a poor reflection of human beings rather than of the capitalist system that they operate within. Capitalism, for all its faults, has resulted in the greatest increase in human standards of living and it should be celebrated for this.
"Capitalism" is more precisely termed "liberal market-based society".


And as the term suggests, it is liberal. Economic rights and freedoms are perfectly analogous to social and political rights and freedoms. People like Stateman claim to value (often pompously claim to protect) the latter, but pour scorn on (or even try to extinguish) the former.

But, at the heart of things, they are the same thing. My liberal right to express my own opinion, is no different to a liberal right to sell my time, or something I produce, for whatever price I want (or more accurately whatever price I can attain from someone else, who is equally free to pay or not pay whatever they want).

It is the fascist and totalitarians of this world who would curtail my social and political freedoms and rights (as we see the Left currently trying to curtail freedom of speech) as they would try to curtail my economic freedoms and rights (by telling me I can't take a job for €9 per hour if I want). They want to dictate "what is good for you". Because of cause they, the Statemen of this world, have decided they know what is right, what is best and want to set the rules for others (funnily enough, only ever rules that they agree with).


This is why "capitalist" societies are much more free and fair. Because the ideas of those that would curtail economic rights and freedoms are no different to those that also curtail social or political rights and freedoms. They have a common root; witness the Chavezs, the Castros the Maos (the Statemen) of this world.


Stateman might learn a lot if he would read this. But he can't, because he likes to ignore nasty people. They are nasty, with nasty ideas.
 
Last edited:

Spurtlebert

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"Not everyone is enjoying themselves."


When you reach senior infants you will come to understand something about the nature of life, the world and existence. Not everyone gets a medal, it isn't possible for everyone to get a medal. But in "capitalist" societies, we are given all the tools, support, advantages and much much more to fulfil our own needs and desires.

The overwhelming majority do extremely well. The poorest person in a "capitalist" society would be as materially well off as the richest 10% in one of Stateman's favoured regimes.



Only a moron would deny it.
Why the insults? When people measure the quality of their lives they do so against the prevailing conditions in the place they live. A chap in Mullingar isn't comparing himself to a resident of Pyongyang.

Maybe I was damning with faint praise when I said capitalism is just "alright". It's pretty great and I would choose it over any other system for running the economy as long as it's properly regulated of course.

I think what I was getting at is that we can always do better and there are aspects of our capitalist economies that we will look back on with a scratch of the head much like we look back at the early twentieth century free market economies and all their faults.

I don't think everyone wants a medal. I do think the political system in developed countries goes out of its way to make their citizens economic lives a bit more complicated and stressful than they really need to be.
 

parentheses

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I,m a bit sceptical about the criticisms of China.

AFAIK the life expectancy and population in China rose remarkably following theCommunist takeover.
 

Trainwreck

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Why the insults? When people measure the quality of their lives they do so against the prevailing conditions in the place they live. A chap in Mullingar isn't comparing himself to a resident of Pyongyang.

Maybe I was damning with faint praise when I said capitalism is just "alright". It's pretty great and I would choose it over any other system for running the economy as long as it's properly regulated of course.

I think what I was getting at is that we can always do better and there are aspects of our capitalist economies that we will look back on with a scratch of the head much like we look back at the early twentieth century free market economies and all their faults.

I don't think everyone wants a medal. I do think the political system in developed countries goes out of its way to make their citizens economic lives a bit more complicated and stressful than they really need to be.

When said chap is bemoaning the liberal market-based system that allows him to be more prosperous, healthy, wealthy and politically free than a resident of Pyongyang, then he has every intellectual obligation to make such a comparison.


It is moronic stuff like this that prompt the insults. Idiot.
 

tsarbomb

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"Capitalism" is more precisely termed "liberal market-based society".


And as the term suggests, it is liberal. Economic rights and freedoms are perfectly analogous to social and political rights and freedoms. People like Stateman claim to value (often pompously claim to protect) the latter, but pour scorn on (or even try to extinguish) the former.

But, at the heart of things, they are the same thing. My liberal right to express my own opinion, is no different to a liberal right to sell my time, or something I produce, for whatever price I want (or more accurately whatever price I can attain from someone else, who is equally free to pay or not pay whatever they want).

It is the fascist and totalitarians of this world who would curtail my social and political freedoms and rights (as we see the Left currently trying to curtail freedom of speech) as they would try to curtail my economic freedoms and rights (by telling me I can't take a job for €9 per hour if I want). They want to dictate "what is good for you". Because of cause they, the Statemen of this world, have decided they know what is right, what is best and want to set the rules for others (funnily enough, only ever rules that they agree with).


This is why "capitalist" societies are much more free and fair. Because the ideas of those that would curtail economic rights and freedoms are no different to those that also curtail social or political rights and freedoms. They have a common root; witness the Chavezs, the Castros the Maos (the Statemen) of this world.


Stateman might learn a lot if he would read this. But he can't, because he likes to ignore nasty people. They are nasty, with nasty ideas.
While I agree that market based economies generally are morally superior to regulated economies because they ensure that people are at liberty to do more things provided that they are no directly harmful to other people, I disagree regarding the relationship that you claim they have with political systems. There are number of instances of autocracies successfully maintaining a capitalist economy such as Argentina and Chile and both of these countries thrived because of it. Indeed, sometimes it may be necessary to suspend a country's democratic institutions in order to protect its liberal economic system (after all democracy is largely a means to maintain a certain level of freedom and not really a good in itself for most people as very few people regularly participate in the political system while the majority participate economically in some way every day). For instance, imagine if a left wing coalition agreed to form a government here? I would hope that it would be overthrown before it turned us into slaves. The current dominance of centre left parties in the Dáil (FF/FG/Lab) and government is bad enough.
 

mr_anderson

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Figures like that get bandied about on the net but where do they come from?

The western governments and media like those figures being bandied about but they don't count how many they kill, this is the reality.

Mao introduced policies that worked in some cases and not in others just like all governments do. No one goes round saying because Ahern had very poor health policies 200,000 people died who would otherwise have had longer lives. Therefore Ahern killed 200,000 people.

Thatcher killed 10 million and Obama killed 100 million.

Such bland estimates are used about 'enemy' countries but not about western ones.


So ... how many would you say Mao killed ?
 

Fractional Reserve

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It is the nature of addictive substances to undermine choice. To cynically market products that lead to millions of deaths is also a choice. There is convincing evidence that that people involved knew the damage their products were doing before anyone else but fought every attempt to control them while continuing to spend vast sums on marketing. We blame Stalin for his evil and Mao for his. We should not be any less clear about what the large corporation have done or the system that facilitates it.

As a few people have pointed out it is not a case of one or the other. Systems should serve us not the other way around. Capitalism worked best for the people when communism was a threat. Governments intervened to create fairer societies in order to prevent revolution. That was sensible and they appear to have forgotten it.
ah will you stop and take a bit of responsibility for actions taken.I smoked and got a nice heart attack for my troubles , my fault , my choice no one else .
 

Zapped(CAPITALISMROTS)

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daxxdrake
ah will you stop and take a bit of responsibility for actions taken.I smoked and got a nice heart attack for my troubles , my fault , my choice no one else .
Rots sez support the Cuban Tobacco Industry !!:cool:
 

razorblade

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Yes Cuba, North Korea, Venezuala are all great beacons of hope, why dont we all go live in those countries, to escape from the evil clutches of capitalism they must be really fun splendid places to live in.
 

NYCKY

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United Airlines beat up a customer. Their share price fell a bit.

American Airlines announced pay rises for cabin crew. Their share prices fell a lot.

What a messed up way to run a world.



Capitalism summed up in one graph - The London Economic

Whom the gods would destroy...
You're extrapolating a bit too much from what are essentially a few economic sound bites.

It's very silly to sum up capitalism based on a few movements of a single company's share price.
 

Spurtlebert

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When said chap is bemoaning the liberal market-based system that allows him to be more prosperous, healthy, wealthy and politically free than a resident of Pyongyang, then he has every intellectual obligation to make such a comparison.


It is moronic stuff like this that prompt the insults. Idiot.
So you're upset that humans don't work the way you think they should? Nobody is obliged to look at the world the way you do.
 

SamsonS

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ah will you stop and take a bit of responsibility for actions taken.I smoked and got a nice heart attack for my troubles , my fault , my choice no one else .
Did you stop? I'm 9 weeks . Or in stats terms, 10000 days smoking, 63 days not smoking.....
 

mr_anderson

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Would you prefer to live under capitalism at it's worst or communism at it's worst ?
 

dalyp

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United Airlines beat up a customer. Their share price fell a bit.

American Airlines announced pay rises for cabin crew. Their share prices fell a lot.

What a messed up way to run a world.



Capitalism summed up in one graph - The London Economic

Whom the gods would destroy...
If I may, maybe corporatism would have been a better word to use instead of capitalism, a lot harder for the hordes to defend and closer to the truth. Even some who believe in capitalism would agree that the relentless drive towards share price has warped the free market
 


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