Capuchins: Pearse 1916 surrender order removed 'without authorisation'

El Libre

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Most reports of the forthcoming sale of one of Patrick Pearse's 1916 surrender orders have tended to regurgitate uncritically the Adam's auction catalogue. However, the Irish Times has now registered an objection from the Capuchins, original custodians of the surrender document and indeed still the owners of a substantial 1916 Rising archive. Referring to an earlier sale of the document in 2005, Fr Columbus Murphy OFM wrote to the paper, 'The Capuchin Order regrets to state that this document was later alienated by persons unknown from the archives of the order without the authorisation of its superiors and put up for sale'.

Adam's have rejected the Capuchins' claim as 'completely erroneous', stating that the surrender order's provenance had been 'thoroughly established'. Adam's catalogue furnishes the following provenance: 'Fr. Columbus O.F.M. Cap.; Fr. Conrad, O.F.M. Cap. As Provincial (Superior) of the Capuchin Order. Thence by descent'. Ah yes, 'Thence by descent'.

The saintly Capuchins do not appear to be acting to prevent the sale, although they probably could do with a few bob more to help their charitable work with the homeless. Coming up to Christmas, I just know that the current possessor of the surrender order and Adam's are going to give generous donations to the Capuchins when the sale cash comes through.
 
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El Libre

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The Adam's sale catalogue contains a background article on Pearse's surrender order attributed to Diarmaid Ferriter, which however does not deal with the issue of provenance. Curiously, some of the text in the article can be found eleswhere on the Internet, eg, 'Fr Columbus wrote that Maxwell expressed his horror at the loss of life and destruction of property, but said Oh, but we will make those beggars pay for it. Fr Columbus replied, The blood of martyrs is the seed of martyrs. Are you backing them up then? asked Maxwell. Concluding that prudence was the better part of valour, Columbus said nothing.' This and other text in the catalogue are to be found on a website called Kilmainham Tales (of course establishing the provenance of text on the Internet is also extremely problematic).
 
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APettigrew92

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Most reports of the forthcoming sale of one of Patrick Pearse's 1916 surrender orders have tended to regurgitate uncritically the Adam's auction catalogue. However, the Irish Times has now registered an objection from the Capuchins, original custodians of the surrender document and indeed still the owners of a substantial 1916 Rising archive. Referring to an earlier sale of the document in 2005, Fr Columbus Murphy OFM wrote to the paper, 'The Capuchin Order regrets to state that this document was later alienated by persons unknown from the archives of the order without the authorisation of its superiors and put up for sale'.

Adam's have rejected the Capuchins' claim as 'completely erroneous', stating that the surrender order's provenance had been 'thoroughly established'. Adam's catalogue furnishes the following provenance: 'Fr. Columbus O.F.M. Cap.; Fr. Conrad, O.F.M. Cap. As Provincial (Superior) of the Capuchin Order. Thence by descent'. Ah yes, 'Thence by descent'.

The saintly Capuchins do not appear to be acting to prevent the sale, although they probably could do with a few bob more to help their charitable work with the homeless. Coming up to Christmas, I just know that the current possessor of the surrender order and Adam's are going to give generous donations to the Capuchins when the sale cash comes through.
Irish History has been bought and sold for quite a while now.

You only needed to tune in to the Late Late Show edition where they had two "intellectuals" discussing the illegality of the rebellion (I forgot, it seems, that ever revolution hitherto came about due to a popular vote) and waxing lyrical about the halcyon days when their ancestors benefited from the largesse of British rule.

I guess that means that their farmsteads were not plundered, their people returned to the dirt and starved by "market policies" then.

The fact that a document as pivotal as that is going on auction is disgusting. How can you, in good conscience, sell a piece of Irish history to some private collector so he can hang it on his wall?

We have a moral obligation, as a people, as a nation, to preserve and maintain the legacy of our ancestors. The greatest victory of this State will be the final victory over the conscience. By perpetuating the narrative that Irishmen are weak, subservient, powerless and feckless of their origins, they may continue on ransacking and plundering the wealth of this nation as their forebears did.

As Larkin said : "The great only appear great because we are on our knees." The Irish Government would have us stay there.
 
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To anyone who can get their hands on it the Capuchin annual of 1966 is quite the bitter read.

I have some mundane Pearse documents in my possession. They refer to stuuf surrounding the school and include cheques. I should probable pass them on to the school next time I'm over. They might be worth money in the right market but I'd rather just pass them on.
 

GDPR

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To anyone who can get their hands on it the Capuchin annual of 1966 is quite the bitter read.

I have some mundane Pearse documents in my possession. They refer to stuuf surrounding the school and include cheques. I should probable pass them on to the school next time I'm over. They might be worth money in the right market but I'd rather just pass them on.
Why do you say that?
 
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Why do you say that?
Because it is a bitter read. Why ever would I say other than that?

It's often said that history is written by the victors, but in the case of 1916 and the treaty negotiations it has too often been written by the last survivors. Too many of the accounts of the treaty negotiations diverge and ultimately it is only those of the final survivor which remain unchallenged by any of the other principals by dint of the fact that they no longer survive to rebut them.

The 1966 Capuchin annual is a classic example of that. It is quite a dark document. Have you read it? I have an original copy in Dublin. I'm missing only four of the imprint. The whole series is available online.
 

GDPR

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Because it is a bitter read. Why ever would I say other than that?

It's often said that hitory is written by the victors, but in the case of 1916 and the treaty negotiations it has too often been written by the last survivors. Too many of the accounts of the treaty negotaions diverge and ultimately it is only thse of the final survivor which remain unchallenged by any of the other principals by dint of the fact that they no longer survive to rebut them.

The 1966 Capuhin annual is a classic example of that. It is quite a dark document. Have you read it? I have an original copy in Dublin. I'm missing only 4 of the imprint. The whole series is available online.
It is something that I should have read but havent; are you saying that it is Ultra-Republican? Im not an Irish Republican though Im not Anti-Irish Republicanism per se either, I do though however have a very strong admiration for Patrick Pearse and his father, largely coming out of my connection to Franciscan Spirituality which outside of the context of I think it is impossible to really understand him (actually the German critical theorist Carl Schmitt talked about this).
 
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It is something that I should have read but havent; are you saying that it is Ultra-Republican? Im not an Irish Republican though Im not Anti-Irish Republicanism per se either, I do though however have a very strong admiration for Patrick Pearse and his father, largely coming out of my connection to Franciscan Spirituality which outside of the context of I think it is impossible to really understand him (actually the German critical theorist Carl Schmitt talked about this).
It's been some years since I read it, but the overall impression is one of recrimination against those involved in 1916 and in the treaty negotiations; and not that they happened at all but that they didn't go far enough. There is a degree of revisionism in it which doesn't read well in an avowedly religious publication.

Anger seeps from the pages of that particular edition.
 

Catalpast

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Because it is a bitter read. Why ever would I say other than that?

It's often said that history is written by the victors, but in the case of 1916 and the treaty negotiations it has too often been written by the last survivors. Too many of the accounts of the treaty negotiations diverge and ultimately it is only those of the final survivor which remain unchallenged by any of the other principals by dint of the fact that they no longer survive to rebut them.

The 1966 Capuchin annual is a classic example of that. It is quite a dark document. Have you read it? I have an original copy in Dublin. I'm missing only four of the imprint. The whole series is available online.
It was reprinted this year

- I bought one off a Brother in City Hall earlier this year

I bought a lot of material recently being the year that's in it

- its on the bucket list right now

- so I cannot really comment if its 'bitter' or not....

As for the OP I don't know who is right or wrong here

But things do change hands over time in somewhat unconventional ways....
 

gijoe

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Is the issue over 'provenance' that it was passed on to relatives rather being kept within the Order. And whether that person had to right to pass it on in the first place?

If it effectively has not been challenged seemingly for decades then there is really no redress here even if it was wrong.
 

GDPR

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It's been some years since I read it, but the overall impression is one of recrimination against those involved in 1916 and in the treaty negotiations; and not that they happened at all but that they didn't go far enough. There is a degree of revisionism in it which doesn't read well in an avowedly religious publication.

Anger seeps from the pages of that particular edition.
Okay it appears that buying a copy under 150 euros isnt possible- but a friend has a copy that was given to her by her great uncle which she is willing to lend me. So I will read her copy and if it is interesting order one for the house. It might be worth a thread here. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the Treaty I dont think it can be doubted that the first CnG governments were by and large evil people who did last damage to the FS/ROI. Have you ever read Black List Section H by Francis Stuart?
 
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Okay it appears that buying a copy under 150 euros isnt possible- but a friend has a copy that was given to her by her great uncle which she is willing to lend me. So I will read her copy and if it is interesting order one for the house. It might be worth a thread here. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the Treaty I dont think it can be doubted that the first CnG governments were by and large evil people who did last damage to the FS/ROI. Have you ever read Black List Section H by Francis Stuart?
€150?

Bloody hell. I wonder how much the near complete set in good condition is worth.

I'm missing four.

My other collection is of Wisdens, but I'm missing about thirty of those - including their fabled 1916 edition.
 

GDPR

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€150?

Bloody hell. I wonder how much the near complete set in good condition is worth.

I'm missing four.

My other collection is of Wisdens, but I'm missing about thirty of those - including their fabled 1916 edition.
300 euros and 290 euros are prices I have seen on the net. Look at the hammer price;

https://www.adams.ie/54155/CAPUCHIN-ANNUAL-1966-1967-1916-Golden-Jubilee-The-Capuchin-Annual-for-1966-1966-Two-volumes-Quarto-Dublin-Dollard-1966/67-Profusely-illustrated-some-in-colour-original-brown-wrappers-Contains-ex?ipp=All&keyword=&view=lot_detail
 

GDPR

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€150?

Bloody hell. I wonder how much the near complete set in good condition is worth.

I'm missing four.

My other collection is of Wisdens, but I'm missing about thirty of those - including their fabled 1916 edition.
I never had you down as a cricket fan! Apparently Martin Mc Guiness is very into cricket to!
 

Accidental sock

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I have Pearse's very first Nintendo gameboy. Bought it on donedeal.
 
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I never had you down as a cricket fan! Apparently Martin Mc Guiness is very into cricket to!
Played the game for near on 30 years and was all but obsessive about it. I'll leave a good library on the game.
 
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BTW, go to page 11 here:

Capuchin Annual
The front pages were loaded with ads.

"Abestos Cement Limited". The ad has a five number telephone. It also uses - weirdly - the French for asbestos "amiante" in its telegraph address.
 
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Des were your parents Third Order Franciscans?
No, they were bog standard RCs.

My mother, though, had a strong strain of intellectual rigour in her. She retains that in her present dotage and I hope that I have inherited some of that rigour.

She bought the Capuchin annually and preserved it well. It's a valuable insight into the thought processes which drove the country. I look forward to the day when I have the complete set.
 

pedagogus

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No, they were bog standard RCs.

My mother, though, had a strong strain of intellectual rigour in her. She retains that in her present dotage and I hope that I have inherited some of that rigour.

She bought the Capucin annually and preserved it well. It's a valuable insight into the thought processes which drove the country. I look forward to the day when I have the complete set.
It was a standard item in all bookish households up to the 60s.
 


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