Castlepollard Exclusion From Commission on Mother and Baby Homes INQUIRY. (Second Thread)


StarryPlough01

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Catalpast

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Patricia Burke Brogan joined the Sisters of Mercy to help the poor, but after working briefly in Galway’s Magdalene laundry she decided to leave the order and write about what she had witnessed.




Patricia Burke Brogan - Irish Times
'I wondered if I should just open the place and let them out'


Additional resources for you

Sex in a Cold Climate - a 1998 documentary directed by Steve Humphries (historical consultant: Frances Finnegan) presenting interviews of four women interred in various Magdalene asylums and orphanages because of out-of-wedlock pregnancies, being sexually assaulted, or just being "too pretty".

Do Penance or Perish: Magdalen Asylums in Ireland by historian Frances Finnegan published (hardback) Congrave Press Ireland, 2001; and (paperback) Oxford University Press, 2004. The first book to be published on the topic and still the definitive study, it is based on 21 years' research. Using a wide range of sources including the Annals and Penitents' Registers of the Good Shepherd archives, the book examines the history, purpose and inmates of the institutions. ISBN 0-9540921-0-4.

The Forgotten Maggies, a 2009 documentary by Steven O'Riordan, launched at the Galway Film Fleadh.

James M. Smith's Ireland's Magdalene Laundries and the Nation's Architecture of Containment won the 2007 Donald Murphy Prize for a Distinguished First Book from the American Conference for Irish Studies. ISBN 978-0-268-04127-4

Rachel Dilworth's The Wild Rose Asylum: Poems of the Magdalen Laundries of Ireland, the 2008 winner of the Akron Poetry Prize, is a collection of poems based on the Magdalene Laundries.

In the Shadow of Eden is an award-winning short memoir by Rachael Romero. Using vintage footage and photos of what led up to her incarceration in the Convent of the Good Shepherd (Magdalene) Laundries in South Australia, Romero outlines her experience there.

For The Love of My Mother by J.P. Rodgers tells the story of his Irish mother, born into a life of poverty and detained at the age of two for begging in the streets. Bridget Rodgers spent the next 30 years of her life locked away in one institution or another, including the Magdalen Laundries.

The Magdalen Martyrs is a 2003 crime novel written by Ken Bruen. In the third episode of Bruen's Jack Taylor series, Jack Taylor is given a mission: "Find the Angel of the Magdalene", actually a devil incarnate nicknamed Lucifer, a woman who "helped" the unfortunate martyrs incarcerated in the infamous laundry.

"Magdalene Laundry Survivor. The Irish government admits it played a major role in forcing women into work camps." CBC radio interview, February 5, 2013.

Irish Journey by Halliday Sutherland. Dr Sutherland visited the Magdalene Laundry in Galway in April 1955 and wrote of the visit in the book. Sutherland met the Bishop of Galway to seek permission for the visit. Permission was granted on condition that anything he wrote about the Laundry be approved by the Mother Superior of the Sisters of Mercy. Accordingly, Sutherland's account in "Irish Journey" was censored. Following discovery of the publisher's manuscript in a cellar in 2013, the uncensored version was published on hallidaysutherland.com in an article "The Suitcase in the Cellar".

Ireland's Forced Labour Survivors, BBC radio documentary, October 26, 2014.

Philomena is a 2013 drama film based on the book by Sixsmith, Martin (2009). The Lost Child of Philomena Lee: A Mother, Her Son and a Fifty-Year Search. London: Macmillan. ISBN 9780230744271. OCLC 373479096.The Lost Child of Philomena Lee at Google Books (another edition) is the true story of Philomena Lee's 50-year-long search for her forcibly adopted son, and Sixsmith's efforts to help her find him.
Brogans own words:

“I was given the key, so that transferred the authority to me, and I wondered if I should just open the place and let them out. But most of them had no place to go . . . when I asked the superior why they weren’t let out, she said ‘Oh, if you let them out they’d be back here in no time, pregnant again’.”

Obviously most of them were prostitutes.
 

Catalpast

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Uncensored version of Dr Halliday Sutherland's IRISH JOURNEY with Mother Superior Sr M Fidelma's requested deletions



*IN APRIL 1955 DR HALLIDAY SUTHERLAND VISITED THE SISTERS OF MERCY MAGDALENE LAUNDRY AS WELL AS TUAM MOTHER AND BABY HOME IN COUNTY GALWAY*



Below, a couple of Mother Superior Sr M Fidelma's deletions noted in Dr Halliday Sutherland's 'Irish Journey' draft ~~


The Suitcase in the Cellar | Halliday Sutherland



CENSORED page 123 ~ Failed Escape Attempt by a Magdalene Girl






CENSORED page 124 ~ Corporal Punishment






Mother Superior Sr Fidelma's Covering Letter to Dr Sutherland, dated 13 October 1955, with her DELETIONS ~~















See following post for more information...
So girls asked to be re admitted?

Interesting...very interesting...:cool:
 

Catalpast

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What people seem to be forgetting is that whatever the rights and wrongs of these Institutions [as judged by the standards of that time]

- only a tiny proportion of women who were pregnant out of wedlock ended up in these places


I covered this in a thread before:

During the year 1940 the number of deaths returned as due to diseases of pregnancy, childbirth and the puerperal state was 208.

This figure is equivalent to a rate of 3·67 per 1,000 births, compared with an average of 4·32 in the preceding ten years. The corresponding rate for urban areas was 2·76 per 1,000 births, and for rural areas, 4·24, as compared with 3·12 and 3·56 respectively, for the year 1939.


There were 3,759 deaths of infants under one year of age registered during the year. This figure is 68 above that for the year 1939, and is equivalent to a rate of 66 per 1,000 births·; the rate for last year was also 66. The rates per 1,000 births for urban and rural areas were 85 and 55 respectively in 1940, and 83 and 55 in 1939.

Among legitimate infants the rate of mortality was 60 per 1,000 births, and among illegitimate it was 246. The legitimate infant mortality rate for Northern Ireland was 82 and the illegitimate, 167 ; and for Scotland 76 and 120 respectively.

The number of deaths registered as caused by violence was 1,067. Included in this figure are 99 due to suicide, 13 to homicide, 12 to war operations, 2 to execution, and 941 to accidental or unspecified violent causes. During the previous year there were 80 suicidal, 15 homicidal and 815 other violent deaths. The number of accidental deaths registered during 1940 as attributable to road traffic was 210, compared with 198 for the previous year.
Server Error 404 - CSO - Central Statistics Office
ANNUAL REPORT OF THE REGISTAR GENERAL 1940

Estimated population: 2,958,000

Births: 56,594

Deaths: 41,885

NORTHERN IRELAND, 1940

Population: 1,296,000

Births: 25,363

Deaths: 18,941

Interestingly the Birth and Death rates North & South were almost the same but the Marriage rate in the North was Higher!

Illegitimate Births.-The births registered during 1940 include 1,824 of illegitimate children, a figure which is 43 more than that for 1939. The number for 1940 is equivalent to a rate of 0·62 per 1,000 of the population, and a rate of 3·22 per cent. of the total births recorded. The respective rates for the previous year were 0·61 per 1,000 and 3·18 per cent.

In Northern Ireland for 1940 the rate per cent. of the total births was 4·61, and for Scotland 5·89.


From the table below it will see the illegitimate rate was highest in Ulster counties and lowest in Connacht.


Food for thought here methinks....

Ireland 1940 - A snapshot in Time

The number of illegitimate births was 1,824 approx. 3% of the birth population

We now know that some 11,500 women were sent to the Magdalenes

We don't know when the last women were sent there but its probably fair to say their heyday was 1922- 1977 at most

That is approximately 200 women a year

We know that some 25% were there by Court Order and others were there for all sorts of reasons

But lets say 50% were there because they were unfortunate to give birth outside marriage

So say 100 a year

If in 1940 some 100 women were put in these places because of what they had done

- then what happened to the other 1,724 women?

Did they go back home after it was all over?

Did they Emigrate?

Did they move to Dublin?

I think we can say that after viewing the Statistics

- that the picture in not quite as Black as some modern commentators would have us believe...

Ireland 1940 - A snapshot in Time
 

StarryPlough01

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So girls asked to be re admitted?

Interesting...very interesting...:cool:


Mother Superior Sister M Fidelma said "sometimes."


The women and girls would have to be desperate to ask to be readmitted (like the workhouses).



For example


Source: http://www.magdalenelaundries.com/State_Involvement_in_the_Magdalene_Laundries_public.pdf



*Dr Sutherland Halliday quoted from an interview he had with Mother Superior Sr M Fidelma at Sisters of Mercy Magdalene Laundry in Galway that SEVENTY PERCENT of the women in that laundry were “unmarried mothers."


The social welfare act of 1973, where unmarried mothers received a weekly allowance of 8.50 pounds, was not in place, and the women and girls had no other means of support.


*Too institutionalised from the cradle to cope outside the high walls.


*They might have a disability.




There was 'huge traffic' between the Mother and Baby Homes and Magdalene Laundries.



Here are some extracts from JFMR on State Involvement in the Magdalene Laundries~~~



Page 68 onwards



c. Transfers from Mother and Baby Homes



16 February 2013



http://www.magdalenelaundries.com/State_Involvement_in_the_Magdalene_Laundries_public.pdf



Within one year of the State’s founding, The Local Government (Temporary Provisions) Act, 1923 abolished the previous system of relieving the poor and infirm through workhouses and instituted a system of County Homes. Each Irish county adopted a scheme for the administration of the relief of the poor of that county which had to be confirmed by the Minister for Local Government and placed before the Oireachtas (see section 4 of the Act [4/53/1161]).

The county schemes for 1923-1924 are set out in the First Schedule to the Act [4/53/11691235].

The Galway Scheme is unique in that it provided a statutory basis for withdrawing public assistance from women who refused to be confined in the Galway Magdalene Laundry after a second or subsequent pregnancy outside of marriage.



It states:



4. Unmarried Mothers are divided into two classes:-



(a) First offenders, to be dealt with in the same institution as children.

(b) Old offenders to be sent to Magdalen Asylum.



Unmarried Mothers who come within Class (b) shall be offered an opportunity of relief and retrievement in the Magdalen Asylum, Galway, upon such terms and conditions as may be agreed on between the Executive Committee and the Sisters in Charge of the Magdalen Asylum.



If necessary the Committee may make arrangements with other Institutions.



Persons in Class (b) who refuse to enter such Institutions as may be selected shall not be allowed, under any circumstances to become chargeable to the public rates [4/53/1178-1179].



124. By 1928, the Commission on the Relief of the Sick and the Destitute Poor was recommending a similar policy nation-wide: that women who had given birth outside marriage once should be detained in the Mother and Baby Homes “for a period not exceeding one year” and mandatory incarceration in the Laundries for women applying for maternity assistance a second time — “there should be power to retain for a period of two years”. Where a woman had sought assistance on three or more occasions, the Board of Health should have the power to “retain for such period as they think fit, having considered the recommendation of the Superior or Matron of the Home”.



Although “ The term of detention … is not intended to be in any sense penal ... The object ... is to regulate control according to individual requirements, or in the more degraded cases to segregate those who have become sources of evil, danger and expense to the community” [5/114/1621].



Signalling mandatory periods of detention in this manner endorsed the practice of transferring women from State funded mother and baby homes into unregulated Magdalene Laundries.70



125. Professor Luddy has commented that “Such a stance, though not intended to be penal, allowed for the development of an attitude that accepted detention as a means of protecting society from these reoffending women ... These were women whose sexuality had to be managed and contained. What appears to have happened is that some of these ‘repeat offenders’ found themselves admitted to Magdalen asylums which proved difficult to leave.”[9/283/2964]



126. The Department of Local Government and Public Health Annual Report 1932-33 underscores that the Commission’s recommendations were already adopted as official policy. It details the State’s reliance on the Laundries to confine women who gave birth to more than one child outside of marriage.



It states, “



With regard to the more intractable problem presented by unmarried mothers of more than one child, the Sisters-in-Charge of the Magdalene Asylums in Dublin and elsewhere throughout the country are willing to co-operate with the local authorities by admitting them into their institutions. Many of these women appear to be feeble-minded and need supervision and guardianship. The Magdalene Asylum offers the only special provision at present for this class”[5/115/1624],45



TUAM



127. JFM has evidence from a contemporaneous account from Halliday Sutherland in his book Irish Journey that in 1958, one of the mother and baby homes – The Children’s Home in Tuam, Co Galway, which was licensed and funded by the State — was sending “ girls ” that had “ two confinements … to the Magdalen Home Laundry in Galway" [9/276/2815].



***Halliday Sutherland quotes from an interview he had with the Mother Superior of the convent operating the Magdalene Laundry in Galway in 1958 [1955] that seventy per cent of the women in that Laundry were “unmarried mothers”.



The only other group she mentioned were girls “ sent here when they leave the Industrial School because they need special care”.



When asked whether a woman or girl could leave whenever she chose, the Mother Superior stated “ No, we’re not as lenient as that. The girl must have a suitable place to go”. She was then asked how long they stayed. She replied “Some stay for life” [9/276/2816].



This is supported by the large numbers of women and girls who died in the Laundries and were buried in the Laundry plots in cemeteries across Ireland. JFM is aware of at least 1149 women who are buried in those plots and therefore must have stayed for life.
____________



Footnote

45 Evidence of State complicity with regard to the practice of transferring women from Mother and Baby Homes to Magdalene Laundries was presented to the then Minister for Health on 25th March 2010 [5/146/1752].


_____________




TUAM (p71)



128. This account is supported by material derived from the Department of Health Archives. The annual returns made by the nuns who managed the Tuam home to the Department of Local Government and Public Health for 1953 to 1958 contained a record for the “Whereabouts of the parents”. In at least 26 cases, the mother was noted to be “in the Magdalen Home" [5/122/1656-1666].



This underscores the State’s regulation of the Mother and Baby Homes – and the State’s awareness that mothers were being sent from the Mother and Baby Homes directly to the Laundries. The annual returns also record that some of the children in the Home were placed for adoption, both domestically and overseas in the United States of America.

….
 

StarryPlough01

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Commercial Manager of the Good Shepherd Laundry in Limerick from 1976: Mr John Kennedy


McAleese Report, Chapter 12, Factories Acts and Regulation of the Workplace


Report of the Inter-Departmental Committee to establish the facts of State involvement with the Magdalen Laundries - The Department of Justice and Equality



181. First, he set out his general impression on first being hired in 1976 as manager of the Good Shepherd Laundry in Limerick:


“walking into the laundry with its expensive non slip vinyl floor covering, standards of cleanliness like those found in a hospital and all the other changes, made it for me, a state of the art industrial place of work. The maintenance problems with the plant were easily solved over time by hiring a full time fitter/ electrician – something the Nuns never did, which was false economy”.73


182. Second, he shared with the Committee anecdotal accounts he had heard in relation to three accidents in other Magdalen Laundries, during the time before his employment [in 1976]:


“I only know of three bad industrial accidents in the old days in the Laundry, which is nothing short of miraculous. The one in which the lady lost her forearm in the callender (large roller iron), I am reliably told by a Resident, was completely her own fault”.74

(He said that the account he had been given of this incident, resulting in the loss of an arm, was that the woman in question had inserted her hand over the safety barrier in an attempt to remove an item of clothing fed into the callender by another woman).
 

StarryPlough01

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Chairman of Coalition of Mother And Baby home Survivors Paul Redmond UNZIPS MINISTER FOR CHILDREN KATHERINE ZAPPONE REVEALING HER ALIEN SLITHEEN FORM



Paul Redmond states: "A formal complaint has already been submitted to the United Nations about the Collaborative Forum and, we have retained the expertise of an eminent lawyer to take our further complaints directly to the United Nations Committee Against Torture"




| Broadsheet.ie



Bodger at 12:32 pm November 8, 2018



This morning.


Paul Redmond, chair of the Coalition of Mother And Baby home Survivors and author of The Adoption Machine, has resigned from the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs Katherine Zappone’s survivors’ forum.


Mr Redmond has released a statement, saying:


“I am absolutely heart sick at Zappone’s latest, cynical, time wasting farce which is of no benefit to living survivors. CMABS biggest demand since 2014 has been the full inclusion of ALL survivors in the current Inquiry into Mother and Baby homes.


:mad2: “However, Zappone has fought this at every opportunity and has now excluded them from the remit of the so-called Survivors Forum as well as excluding any discussion of the long delayed Adoption Bill to open the adoption records.


:mad2: “Attempts to have these issues included in the agenda of the forum have failed and it is clear the civil servants running the forum have their own agenda to limit and frustrate the survivor and adoption communities at every turn.


“Zappone has cold heartedly refused to release the funding for memorials promised to the community in January 2015 and has instead frivolously spent our memorial funding on advertising a forum to discuss the memorials over the course of at least a year!


“It’s simply unbelievable. This is beyond hypocrisy and a complete waste of hundreds of thousands of euros of taxpayers money to stall instead of taking action. :mad2:


“Minister Zappone’s two and half years in office has seen progress for the living survivor community stop dead and it is clear she needs to resign immediately and allow a decent and compassionate person do the job she point blank refuses to do. :thumbsup:


“My biggest regret is not listening to Derek Leinster of the Bethany Home Survivor’s Group ’98 who boycotted this forum from the beginning declaring it would be of no benefit to our community. He was correct.


“I decided to participate and try and turn it around and transform the forum into a fast tracked series of recommendations to the minister for the urgent issues our community needs addressed but, :devilish: *the forum was perverted and warped from the start by Minister Zappone and her civil servants to ensure the survivor community could make no progress on the substantive issues.* :devilish:



:mad2: “Zappone is guilty of one of the lowest, dirtiest, most mean spirited political tricks seen in recent years.



:mad2: “CMABS has engaged an eminent lawyer to bring a formal complaint to the United Nations Committee Against Torture about Zappone’s complete lack of action on survivor issues as well as this disgusting forum designed to sidetrack and divide the survivor community and subvert progress



The Collaborative Forum of Former Residents of Mother and Baby Homes and Related Institutions was set up separately to the ongoing Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes.


At the time of its establishment, the Department of Children and Youth Affairs said:


“The establishment of the Collaborative Forum is a new approach in the State’s response to the theme of ‘nothing about us without us’ which has emerged from the former residents who have participated in consultations to date.”


In a letter to Ms Zappone announcing his resignation, Mr Redmond wrote:


I am hereby tendering my immediate resignation from the Consultative Forum on the Mother and Baby homes.


I believed at the outset – and stated it publicly – that I believed the forum would be a a talking shop and achieve nothing. Sadly this is the way it has turned out.


In accepting the invitation to the join the forum, I believed that I would be able to achieve something for the survivor community who were treated horrifically in the Mother and Baby homes in what was a form of ‘internment without trial’.


:mad2: However, I did have very serious misgivings about the way the forum was set up and constituted. Nevertheless, I did go ahead and accept the invitation to join the forum in the hope, as I said above, of achieving something for the living survivors of the homes as well as our fallen crib mates who were effectively neglected to death by uncaring nuns while the State turned a blind eye and handed over the cheques.


Sadly for the survivors I represent, my concerns have been borne out as regards how the forum is being conducted.


In particular, the manner in which the forum is chaired by an ex-Secretary General of a government department was a source of great concern to me..


Regardless of the calibre of the individual involved (and I accept Gerry Carney is a very decent and capable person), the chair should have been a genuinely neutral outsider.


In addition I do not think that the chairman, a former senior civil servant, could be independent in a situation where the State is culpable for what happened in the mother and baby homes regardless of his personal integrity.


I also note for the record, that you Minister Zappone, have also politically limited the agenda of the forum from the start and have excluded the three most important issues on which many survivors, as represented by the Coalition of Mother And Baby home Survivors (CMABS), have campaigned; namely the full inclusion of ALL survivors in the current inquiry into mother and baby homes and, an immediate acknowledgement, apology and redress for an aging survivors community as recommended by the inquiry itself in its interim report in 2017.


CMABS also notes that the urgent issue of illegal adoptees has also been excluded from both the inquiry and, now from the forum.


This is disgraceful behaviour by a minister supposed to represent survivors and adoptees in these difficult times.


Furthermore, the way certain aspects of the forum have transpired is a cause for further concern. For example, chairpersons of sub-committees were not appointed by objective criteria and, my efforts to have certain matters of the utmost importance moved onto the agenda, were dismissed without cause.


There are several other flaws in the fundamental operation of the forum.


CMABS are aware that a formal complaint has already been submitted to the United Nations about this forum and, we have retained the expertise of an eminent lawyer to take our further complaints directly to the United Nations Committee Against Torture. :thumbsup:


This current political stalling and disingenuous delaying tactics cannot be allowed to continue.


I sincerely hope, as a survivor of a Mother and Baby home, that all survivors will get justice at the end of the day.


However, this forum is certainly a hindrance to that aspiration and of no practical help to the living survivor community.


Meanwhile Minister Zappone, as the forum fiddles, survivors continue dying…



I remain, etc.,


Paul Jude Redmond.

https://www.facebook.com/Coalition-of-Mother-And-Baby-home-Survivors-CMABS-526069800892810/






@Paul Redmond


I called Minister Zappone out on all of the above at each juncture. YOU BELATEDLY NAILED HER. Told you so!




 

Catalpast

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Commercial Manager of the Good Shepherd Laundry in Limerick from 1976: Mr John Kennedy


McAleese Report, Chapter 12, Factories Acts and Regulation of the Workplace


Report of the Inter-Departmental Committee to establish the facts of State involvement with the Magdalen Laundries - The Department of Justice and Equality



181. First, he set out his general impression on first being hired in 1976 as manager of the Good Shepherd Laundry in Limerick:


“walking into the laundry with its expensive non slip vinyl floor covering, standards of cleanliness like those found in a hospital and all the other changes, made it for me, a state of the art industrial place of work. The maintenance problems with the plant were easily solved over time by hiring a full time fitter/ electrician – something the Nuns never did, which was false economy”.73


182. Second, he shared with the Committee anecdotal accounts he had heard in relation to three accidents in other Magdalen Laundries, during the time before his employment [in 1976]:


I only know of three bad industrial accidents in the old days in the Laundry, which is nothing short of miraculous. The one in which the lady lost her forearm in the callender (large roller iron), I am reliably told by a Resident, was completely her own fault”.74

(He said that the account he had been given of this incident, resulting in the loss of an arm, was that the woman in question had inserted her hand over the safety barrier in an attempt to remove an item of clothing fed into the callender by another woman).
Just three serious accidents from a workforce of 10,000+ spread over half a century

- that is amazingly good care by the Nuns of their charges!

They really looked after those girls to make sure no harm came to them when operating the machines.
 

StarryPlough01

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https://www.facebook.com/Coalition-o...6069800892810/


Coalition of Mother And Baby home Survivors - CMABS shared Bethany Home Survivors '98 group's post.

October 18 at 8:37 PM ·


++ LATEST LETTER BY DEREK LEINSTER WITH FULL UNEDITED TEXT HERE!! ! ++

Illegitimate Children from Protestant run Homes Do Not qualify for Top Ten #Hashtags or immediate Referendums.

...Continue Reading



Coalition of Mother And Baby home Survivors - CMABS shared Bethany Home Survivors '98 group's post.


October 18 at 8:37 PM ·


++ LATEST LETTER BY DEREK LEINSTER WITH FULL UNEDITED TEXT HERE!! ! ++


Illegitimate Children from Protestant run Homes Do Not qualify for Top Ten #Hashtags or immediate Referendums.


To Whom it May Concern


There was a distinct and noticeable pattern with the Nursed-out children from the Protestant run Bethany Mother and Baby home and the network of so-called Orphanages they supplied. When a baby or child died, it mattered not one jot where or how they died.


They would be picked up by the undertaker or, their tiny bodies transported in cars driven by Clergymen and Reverends. Sometimes on the back seat: sometimes locked in the boot. I traced a young boy from Monaghan who passed away but because I searched locally, it took me 6 years to find the lad as I presumed he would have been buried locally. I finally found the forgotten Protestant boy in a unmarked mass grave in Mount Jerome cemetery in Dublin. It suited the Hierarchy of the Protestant churches of the time to hide these Protestant children who had no one wanting them or caring about them. They were abandoned in life and in death by the Churches, the state and their own families in many cases. It was as if they just vanished, wiped off this planet as if they were never on it. The Hierarchy left no stone unturned; it would have been difficult to secure petrol during the second World War but they found it … when it came to burying the children deep in the ground and in the past of hidden history.


The people running those notorious Protestant homes wanted no trace left of a Nursed-out child when they died. And that was why, when they died in Nursed-out homes, they could not have them buried where they died. Bodies had to be transported in the dark of night. History was hidden and there were no tracks or traces left in most cases. Their system of secrets worked like a dream for a full one hundred years and, without our research, started by Derek Leinster in 1998, the truth would have been buried along with the tiny bodies of innocent babies.


The Bethany Home survivors got no help from the Protestant churches over the last twenty years and they are getting none today. Instead, obstacles have appeared at every turn. Calls and emails ignored and never returned. If they could had their way, we would never have known about the hundreds of Nursed-out children. Now we know, that most of these children were thrown in remote corners of the houses and left to rot; many, if not most, of those innocent babies died long, slow, lingering and dreadful deaths.


Why should any one get away with this mass murder of Irish Children? If any invader had come to murder our Irish children, would we not have laid down our own lives to save these Irish Children? Because if not, we would be yellow and not fit to be called an Irish Man! Yet still we stand idly by today.


:mad2: There is no public or media storm demanding the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. It seems that justice and recognition for the illegitimate Irish babies of the past, Protestant and Catholic alike, are not fashionable at the moment. We are not a top ten #Hashtag or worthy of an immediate Referendum upon demand. The survivors alongside the families of those lost babies, suffer in silence; and suffer alone. :mad2:


I remain, etc.,



--------------------------------
Derek Leinster
Chair: The Bethany Home Survivors group '98
Rugby
England.



Good job Derek!
 

StarryPlough01

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Let's not forget Irish First Mother's Fintan Dunne's expose



14 July 2018
#2832
Castlepollard Exclusion From Commission on Mother and Baby Homes INQUIRY. (Original Thread) - Page 284



STARRY:


:mad2: WHY HAVE THEY ACCEPTED A GOVERNMENT APPOINTED CHAIRPERSON, WHO WILL EFFECTIVELY SQUELCH ANY DISSIDENTS? :mad2:



WE WERE ALSO FOREWARNED ABOUT THIS BY FINTAN DUNNE, WHO RESIGNED IN PROTEST ABOUT DISSIDENT VOICES NOT BEING RECORDED IN OFFICIAL MINUTES...



Mother and Baby Home Panel Boycott



FULL TEXT OF FINTAN DUNNE'S RESIGNATION



I have this afternoon, 4th April, 2018 resigned from Minister Zappone's Selection Panel for Mother and Baby Home issues, due to the suppression by her Department of the views of Professor Patricia Lundy, who is also a member of the panel.

Professor Lundy was - as expected- absent from the panel meeting today due to other commitments, and I had assured her that I would present and reaffirm her perspectives on proceedings in her absence.

To my shock I found today at our second meeting that those views, which she articulated at the first meeting of the panel had been excised from the official minutes of proceedings.

She had expressed a firm view that the Department was being overly prescriptive in setting the agenda and schedule of the panel and thus restricting the members ability to guide the process. I had been in strong agreement.

I challenged the Chair, Mr. James Halley over what seemed a deliberate omission, calling it a serious breach of trust. He offered neither explanation, apology or remedy.

To compound the problems, I also challenged the Chair's refusal to permit discussion of related problems about the manner in which the work of the panel was being steered into trivialities and away from uncomfortable perspectives.

The panel had purported itself to be a consensual structure where members would have the right to their perspectives and Mr. Halley would resolve differences to achieve a consensus. But my views and my reaffirmation of Professor Lundy's views in absentia were denied any hearing. Again, I was offered neither explanation, apology or remedy.

Instead there was a determination to shoehorn the panel into the Department's agenda and to sign off forthwith on a planned Government publicity campaign inviting public participation in the forthcoming Collaborative Forum. An ill-advised move given the seriousness of our work.

The combination of falsely constructed minutes and a hollow sham consensus rendered my further participation impossible and I resigned at the minutes stage of the meeting.


The 6 members appointed to the panel were:


Ms Teresa Blake SC Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission
Dr James Gallen Dublin City University
Prof Patricia Lundy Ulster University
Ms Clodagh Malone Coalition of Mother and Baby Homes Survivors
Ms Mari Steed Adoption Rights Alliance (based in USA)
Mr Fintan Dunne Irish First Mothers


It was the presence of respected legal and academic figures listed above, and the promise of a consensual process which gave me confidence to enter in good faith into the work of the panel.

I also stepped down from operational aspects of Irish First Mothers as a signal to potential applicants to the Collaborative Forum that I would act in a non-partisan fashion.

But there is little point in the Department inviting respected figures to participate and proffering to be consensual, if there is no such intent.

I have written to the remaining members of the panel asking them to consider if by their continuing presence on the panel they would be misleading the public and sanctioning acts and would betray the interests of the mothers who were abusively sequestered in these State-sanctioned institutions.

This is not the first instance of government suppression of views. Mr. Jerry Buttimer as Chair omitted evidence by First Mothers to the Health Committee when reporting to the Seanad on Dail scrutiny of the Adoption Information Tracing Bill.

I will again take up a full role in Irish First Mothers and the group will recommence taking evidence from mothers in pursuit of our Genocide Claim served on the Attorney General in respect of their treatment at the hands of Church and State. That work of taking testimonies had been suspended in the interests of giving an opportunity to the Minister's initiative.

Fintan Dunne

fintan@fintandunne.com
Phone:
+353899676041 WhatsApp
+353877805681





Read my following post with Fintan Dunne's comments on Susan Lohan (Adoption Rights Alliance), who has been nominated to the Collaborative Forum.


________________________


17 July 2018
#2834
Castlepollard Exclusion From Commission on Mother and Baby Homes INQUIRY. (Original Thread) - Page 284


[MENTION=22021]Samantha[/MENTION] Long [Collaborative Forum]


STARRY:


***PLEASE _URGENTLY_ MOVE FOR A NEW CHAIRPERSON TO BE VOTED ON BY THE COLLABORATIVE FORUM PANEL, AS PER ROBERT'S RULES OF ORDER***




Charter for a Collaborative Forum of Former Residents of Mother and Baby Homes and Related Institutions ~


http://www.politics.ie/forum/justice...l#post12241734



Membership


8) Will consist of 20 representative members *including a Chairperson appointed by the Minister;*



To further inform yourself, read my below posts:


http://www.politics.ie/forum/justice...l#post12243612


http://www.politics.ie/forum/justice...l#post12243620




[MENTION=22021]Samantha[/MENTION] Long (Collaborative Forum)



***I, REITERATE, URGENTLY _MOVE FOR A NEW CHAIRPERSON TO BE VOTED ON BY THE COLLABORATIVE FORUM PANEL_ AS PER ROBERT'S RULES OF ORDER***




Robert's Rules of Order ~


Robert's Rules of Order - Wikipedia






________________________



Dedicated to Margaret Bullen



4 February 2018
http://www.politics.ie/forum/justice...l#post11814708



Samantha [Margaret's twin daughter] made a lengthy statement to the interdepartmental committee, led by Senator Martin McAleese, about her mother’s life. Margaret Bullen had a tragic start in life: she was born in a mental institution in Grangegorman, Dublin to a mother who already had six children, Margaret being the youngest.

[Starry: Margaret Bullen's mother might have had post natal depression?]


Margaret was sent home to Kimmage to live with her siblings and father, where she remained until she was three years old. At that point, Margaret’s brother was sent to Artane industrial school and Margaret and her sister closest to her in age sent to the notorious High Park industrial school and Laundry in Drumcondra.


That, as Samantha says of her mother, “was the end of her and the outside world”.

4 February 2018
http://www.politics.ie/forum/justice...l#post11814952


5 February 2018
http://www.politics.ie/forum/justice...l#post11817138


23 June 2018
http://www.politics.ie/forum/justice...l#post12187694


A life unlived: 35 years of slavery in a Magdalene Laundry


A second statement sent to Senator McAleese’s committee from a former Laundry inmate who remembers Margaret and her sister recounts how Margaret suffered fits as a young child but that they were ignored by the nuns there (then known as the Sisters of Charity of Refuge, now the Sisters of Our Lady of Charity).

Margaret appears to have been moved in her early teens to a special school called St Teresa’s in Blackrock, after she was certified mentally unfit for education, but fit for work.

Her daughter Samantha says in her own statement:


She was assessed at age thirteen as being mentally challenged because on the day that they measured her, they said that she had an IQ of fifty, which I dispute after meeting her, even after all those years of institutionalisation.. And I think that if you’re hungry and tired from your slavery, your IQ wouldn’t be very sharp, or your skills on any given moment mightn’t be sharp. You would be probably just pulled into this room – “now we’re going to measure your IQ” – so even the shock of that wouldn’t, you know, you could shut down.
 

StarryPlough01

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*WARNING* 'Be prepared' to break down ~ in tears ~ after reading my below transcription of Broadsheet on the Telly: Episode 88



IT'S A BETRAYAL OF SURVIVORS...


LIVE Broadsheet on the Telly ~~~ Minister for Children Katherine Zappone's Agenda


I did try to alert readers every step of the way on Castlepollard Original thread [started: 2017-04-15, 12:07] and Castlepollard Second Thread




Broadsheet.ie | A News Source For The Bewildered



Scroll to 49:38



[video=youtube;XB4FICZfXEc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XB4FICZfXEc[/video]




'Broadsheet on the Telly: Episode 88'


Guests: Mr Bernard Purcell, Editor: The Irish World live from London

And Activist Solicitor Kevin Higgins



*Resignation of Paul Redmond from Mother and Babies Collaborative Forum headed up by civil servant Gerry Kearney


Gerry Kearney:

Former secretary general to chair mother-and-baby home forum


*Redress and Memorialisation of Mother and Baby Homes



Presenter John Preposterous Ryan:


Paul Redmond (CMABS) said Minister Zappone had let him down (Zappone had tricked him) and survivors down.



Activist Solicitor Kevin Higgins:


On 23 October 2018 Minister Katherine Zappone's press release announced there will be exhumation and excavation of the bodies at Tuam BUT announced at same time they would require legislation.

Go back to first Sunday June 2017 RTE 'This Week' programme on Sunday. In the course of an interview with John Burke ~~~ Kevin Higgins firmly expressed view that government did not have the power or legal capacity to excavate.

We sent somebody in to meet him [John Burke RTE news?] on 22 October, the night before Zappone's announcement [press release] and asked him 3/4 times if they had ever received advice from the Attorney General that they could do this He ummed and ached but ultimately after a good deal of gibberish, he said that they would probably need new legislation.
.

:mad2: So essentially Paul Redmond's realisation is probably based on the fact that he now accepts that in the case of Tuam THE ONLY WAY IN WHICH TUAM WILL BE EXCAVATED IS WHEN THE GOVERNMENT HAS ENACTED LEGISLATION TO DISPENSE WITH THE NEED FOR AN INQUEST.


I find Paul Redmond's language to be actually temperate.


John Preposterous Ryan:


Yes.


Kevin Higgins:


I would have used much stronger language.


John Preposterous Ryan:


OK.


Kevin Higgins:


I have used strong language in respect of Zappone.

[52:50] [?] response immediately after that announcement [press release of 23.10.2018] was her decision was a vile and callous one. And Paul Redmond has echoed that today. It is vile and callous.


:mad2: In a sense, IT IS A CONSPIRACY, AND IN MY VIEW, *A CRIMINAL CONSPIRACY TO CONCEAL THE ACTUAL TRUTH OF TUAM, AND THE OTHER MOTHER AND BABY HOMES.*


I regret Paul put himself through that in the past year. He has expressed regret that he didn't listen to other people when he was invited to join [The Bethany Home Survivors group '98 ~~ Derek Leinster].


John Preposterous Ryan:


Derek is with the The Bethany Home Group, which is the Protestant home, they were not included for some extremely bureaucratic reason. Sorry Kevin, go on.


[ STARRY: To clarify, the Bethany Home Survivors group '98 *BOYCOTTED THE COLLABORATIVE FORUM* ~

Mother and baby home activist refuses to join selection panel for survivors' forum

Bethany Home was excluded from The Residential Institutions Redress Scheme established in 2002, following the shocking findings of the Ryan Report (industrial schools, reformatories…) ~

s a Protestant - Independent.ie
Bethany survivor helps identify more unmarked graves ]



Kevin Higgins: Continues...


And there was no justifiable reason for their exclusion and Derek's personal history is an extremely moving one.

[54:00] I think Zappone offered to take on this poisoned chalice to stay in cabinet when there was a change of regime at the top with the ending of [Enda] Kenny's reign. [Katherine Zappone:] "Dear Leo, who else will take this $hit on? And I will sort this out."


:mad2: A DEAL HAS BEEN DONE IN THE CASE OF TUAM WITH THE BON SECOURS. [ALLEGEDLY] PRONE WAS INVOLVED IN THAT [TERRY PRONE'S PUBLIC RELATIONS FIRM ~~ CARR COMMUNICATIONS].

:mad2: THE FIGURE OF €2.5 MILLION WAS OUT THERE AT THE SAME TIME KATHERINE ZAPPONE WENT RUNNING UP TO POPE FRANCIS WITH HER LITTLE NOTE.

——> THAT FIGURE OF €2.5 MILLION WAS KNOWN TO ME PRIOR TO THE ANNOUNCEMENT ON 23 OCTOBER [PRESS RELEASE].


John Preposterous Ryan:

Yeah.


Kevin Higgins:


IT IS CRIMINAL, WE CAN'T ALLOW IT TO HAPPEN. And if I can just introduce a lighter note John.


John Preposterous Ryan:


Sure.


Kevin Higgins:


Perhaps one lighter note. You know that horrible moral dilemma [The Moral Maze on BBC Radio 4) - I used to listen to Michael Buerk on Radio 4…. You know this terrible sort of 'delay. ' You are standing on a river bank at a mill race, when your own two children are in there [river], and you can only save one. And what you'd do? If Prone, Fitzgerald and Zappone were in there. I'd know what I'd do. I would take a long walk down to the Nag's Head, and order a pint and figure what my options were.


John Preposterous Ryan: Chuckles.


Kevin Higgins:


That's the nicest way I can put it.


John Preposterous Ryan:


I was reading the Minutes of the Collaborative Forum today.


Collaborative Forum Meetings | dcya.gov.ie 2018

Minutes of Meeting Thursday 12 September 2018, 10.30am, City Hall Dublin
https://www.dcya.gov.ie/documents/mother_and_baby_homes/20181017M&BForumMins12Sept2018.pdf

Minutes of Meeting Thursday 26 July 2018, 12pm, Government Buildings
https://www.dcya.gov.ie/documents/mother_and_baby_homes/20181002_CollabForumMins26July.pdf


There's only been two meetings in fact. It sounds more impressive than it actually was. The language that is used in terms of the victims and survivors is incredibly ornate and very difficult to read in fact.


:mad2: There's a kind of New Age storytelling. We'll do this through storytelling. It's very much like the McAleese Report into the Magdalenes. LET'S HEAR THE VICTIMS, BUT MEANWHILE, WE WILL SCREW THE VICTIMS.


Kevin Higgins:


Incidentally, Zappone couldn't give away places on that Collaborative Forum.


John Preposterous Ryan:


There are some good people on it.


Kevin Higgins:


Sure. Geoff Shannon is a great guy, but we didn't need an DAMN REPORT from Geoff Shannon. There was nothing Geoff Shannon told us about what needs to be done in respect of Tuam or anywhere else. It all speaks for itself. [57:32]


It's 18 months ago … attended a meeting for the FIRST time. [NAME is indistinct ~ microphone distortion in background] She [Catherine Corless] announced that Katherine Zappone had invited her to join this [Collaborative] Forum. She openly asked people for advice. I was sitting next to her, and she asked me what did I think? :mad2: I said, CATHERINE, I think the Minister would prefer to have you inside the tent pissing out, then have you outside the tent pissing in. :mad2:



[STARRY: YOU CAN HEAR 'PREPOSTEROUS' CHUCKLING}


:mad2: THAT WAS EXACTLY WHAT SHE WAS DOING ['inside the tent pissing out']. ZAPPONE KEPT CATHERINE CORLESS CLOSE.



John Preposterous Ryan:


Yeah.


Kevin Higgins:


:mad2: VERY CLOSE DURING THOSE PROCESSES. NONE OF THE SURVIVORS GROUPS HAD THE CONTACT REGULARLY WITH ZAPPONE THAT CATHERINE CORLESS HAD. MY VIEW IS THIS DOES NOT REFLECT BADLY ON HER, AS WE ALL KNOW WHAT WE OWE HER. SHE WAS USED.


WITH THE DEAL ANNOUNCED ON 23 OCTOBER 2018, WHAT ZAPPONE REALLY WANTED THAT DAY WAS CATHERINE CORLESS' ENDORSEMENT.


[59:08] FOR 3.WEEKS, THE GUY THAT RUNS THE MID MORNING PROGRAMME ON GALWAY BAY FM KEITH FINNEGAN... I HAD PUT CERTAIN QUESTIONS TO ZAPPONE.


[STARRY: HIGGINS WOULD HAVE SUBMITTED IN ADVANCE HIS QUESTIONS ~ MEANT TO BE ANSWERED BY ZAPPONE ~ TO THE PRODUCER OF GALWAY BAY FM].


KEVIN HIGGINS SAID: 'KEITH FINNEGAN TRIED FOR 3, 4, 5, 6 WEEKS FOR HER.'


[STARRY: THIS WOULD BE KEITH FINNEGAN'S ATTEMPTS TO TRY AND GET KATHERINE ZAPPONE ON THE PROGRAMME TO ANSWER KEVIN HIGGINS' QUESTIONS].


Kevin Higgins:


THE DAY AFTER THAT ANNOUNCEMENT WAS MADE [23.10.2018] SHE GOES ON TO THAT PROGRAMME FOR A DOUBLE ACT WITH KEITH FINNEGAN FOR AS LONG AS HE WANTED. EVERYBODY HAS BEEN SOLD A BILL OF GOODS.


[STARRY: :mad2: I DO KNOW THAT MS CATHERINE CORLESS WAS ON RADIO PROGRAMME WITH MINISTER FOR CHILDREN KATHERINE ZAPPONE, AFTER THE 23.10.18 PRESS RELEASE, WHERE THERE WAS A LOT OF BACKSLAPPING!! :mad2: ~~~ I WILL TRANSCRIBE AND UPDATE LATER).


Kevin Higgins:


Catherine Corless has certainly been misused. Possibly she is coming to that conclusion.


There is absolutely no doubt that Paul Redmond's language today is nothing less than what Zappone deserves … in my view … he was always prepared to collaborate and work with anybody. Whereas my journey in terms of Mother and Baby Homes has only been over less than 5 years now. Paul's journey has been his lifetime. HE IS A CHILD OF THE CASTLEPOLLARD HOME. And he has informed himself and worked extremely hard on this for perhaps 20 years.

….


As Bernard remarked the last time he was on. [Bernard Purcell Editor The Irish World] It's a war of attrition, they want as many of the survivors, witnesses, families to die. They really do want that. [1:00:53] Delay, delay.

:mad2: I CANNOT ACCEPT THE BONA FIDES OF ZAPPONE OR THIS GOVERNMENT IN ANY WAY. I DO NOT ACCEPT THAT THEY HAVE AT ANY TIME ACTED IN GOOD FAITH. I DON'T TRUST THEM.

As I said before, i have met Katherine Zappone on a good number of occasions now and I have generally shaken hands with her. But I advice anybody else who finds themselves in that position to count their fingers afterwards. And I really do mean that.


Bernard Purcell enters discussion at this point. Kevin Higgins has a smile on his face at Bernard's introductory sentence (Kevin needed to laugh after the deep betrayal he outlines above). At one stage, Kevin Higgins' body language where he unconsciously places his hands on his cheeks, reminded me of the expressionist painting of The Scream by Edvard Munch [1893].




I will continue this later. Have to publish now, no time to re-read.
 
Last edited:

StarryPlough01

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Messages
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Adoption rights campaigner Paul Redmond has resigned from Minister Zappone's Mother and Baby Homes Collaborative Forum, calling it “a cynical, time-wasting farce”


Friday, November 09, 2018 - 05:35 AM

Rights campaigner quits ‘cynical’ mother and baby homes forum | Irish Examiner


By Conall Ó Fátharta



The forum was established in July to facilitate dialogue and action on issues of concern to former residents of mother and baby homes. The forum has 20 members and is divided into three sub-committees examining specific issues.

Mr Redmond, who was born in 1964 in Castlepollard Mother and Baby Home in Co Westmeath, is chairman of the Coalition of Mother and Baby Homes Survivors (CMABS).

In resigning, he said the forum was of no benefit to survivors.



Starry: There must be a few vacancies open now.
 

StarryPlough01

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Messages
14,624
:mad2: Minister Zappone and Government want NEW LEGISLATION IN ORDER TO EXCLUDE CORONIAL INVOLVEMENT AT BEGINNING OF TUAM EXHUMATION :mad2:



Here's the Mutual Appreciation Society of *Non Survivor Ms Catherine Corless* and Minister for Children Katherine Zappone



:mad2: LISTEN TO POLITICAL ANIMAL ZAPPONE ARGUING THAT NEW LEGISLATION IS NECESSARY. LISTEN TO NON SURVIVOR CATHERINE CORLESS CLUMSILY SAYING THAT WHEN THEY FIND "INJURIES", THEY WILL CALL IN THE CORONER



DEAR CATHERINE CORLESS, THE FORENSIC EXCAVATORS WON'T BE LOOKING FOR EVIDENCE OF FOUL PLAY. SO, HOW WILL THE EXCAVATORS RECOGNISE INJURIES? AND IF THEY DO, WHAT IS THE PROCEDURE FOR PROTECTING EVIDENCE?



:thumbsup: THE CORONER SHOULD BE DIRECTLY INVOLVED FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE EXHUMATION.



:mad2: IT'S CLEAR THAT THE INTENT OF NEW LEGISLATION WILL BE TO MAKE IT LEGAL TO DO THE EXHUMATION WITHOUT THE CORONER'S INVOLVEMENT.


:mad2: THE LEGISLATION WILL MAKE IT EASIER FOR EVIDENCE TO SLIP BETWEEN THE CRACKS SO THOSE RESPONSIBLE ARE NEVER HELD TO ACCOUNT
.




Podcast of The Keith Finnegan Show – Wednesday October 24th 2018 THIS HAPPENED THE DAY AFTER KATHERINE ZAPPONE'S PRESS RELEASE.



October 24, 2018


Podcast of The Keith Finnegan Show - Wednesday October 24th 2018 - Galway Bay FM
 

StarryPlough01

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I posted below on another thread, but it's applicable in this spot.


DDarcy,

The buck stops with Taoiseach Leo Varadkar. I want to know whose sphere of influence is protecting Minister Zappone from investigative journalism? I am wondering why there isn't more criticism in the press especially considering all the money she has wasted in implementing her delay tactics. And announcing new legislation to protect her friends from the FALLOUT at Tuam.
 

StarryPlough01

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Messages
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Devastating News... Hear Ye, Hear Ye...



:mad2: I'm utterly heartbroken... My worst fears have been confirmed about Minister for Children Katherine Zappone and Government's SNEAKY PLAN TO DENY JUSTICE TO THE VICTIMS OF TUAM WITH THEIR *NEW LEGISLATION*



:mad2: THERE WILL BE "NO INVESTIGATION IN TO THE CAUSE OF DEATH OF A SINGLE CHILD AT TUAM"





ACTIVIST SOLICITOR KEVIN HIGGINS ~~~


Kevin Higgins on Twitter:


Kevin Higgins‏ @Boglawyer


:mad2: #TuamBabies the actual position at present is that Zappone & the Government propose to introduce special legislation to avoid the legal requirement for an Inquest & in return the Bon Secours contribute to the cost - so no investigation into the cause of death of a single child :mad2:

5:37 AM - 12 Nov 2018




STARRY:


:mad2: I'm still gobsmacked about the mainstream media not asking Minister for Children Zappone and the government the hard questions.


These ^ SNOWFLAKE journalists ^ need to do their job.




*The Collaborating MAINSTREAM PRESS and Chatterings of Minister for Children Zappone's trained Monkey* ~~~


:mad2: I've been pleading with journalists to ask probing questions for over a week. The silence from the collaborating press and the chatterings of Zappone's trained monkey left me IN TEARS. :mad2:




:thumbsup: And a very special thank you to alternative news *Broadsheet on the Telly* who actually do their job, so people like me (Starry) can learn the truth about the ROTTEN TO THE CORE government.


John 'Preposterous' Ryan and Crew, take a bow!
 

StarryPlough01

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And the Icing on the Cake for 'heroine' Catherine Corless...



Catherine Corless has been Flooded with Offers to be HOLLYWOOD'S NEW IDOL OF MILLIONS



Irish World in Britain



Exhumations at other mother-and-baby homes may follow Tuam - The Irish World



Such has been her heroism and stubbornness in championing the cause of Tuam Mother and Babies that the 62-year old’s role could be translated to the silver screen.

Ms Corless admitted that she has been flooded with movie and book offers. True to form, she has stressed that she will not be happy to sign off on anything until the truth is out on what happened during those bleak times with the home.
 

HereWeGoAgain

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This will never be over.

For too many have never received any acknowledgement from the State for what they have suffered and I don't know enough about the bespoke legislation or the advices from AG which prompted such, but suffice to say I cannot understand the reluctance of the Coroner to do his/her duty. Human remains found in any location demand a narrative in as far as possible, as to the circumstances of their death. There are 796 deaths almost all without medical certification. We know that for years now - we know the remains date to the home since March last year. Why the delay?

Presently the Government do not recognise survivors as 'survivors' and are determined to delay until siblings of the disappeared have themselves lost their battle for life.
 

Catalpast

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Messages
26,262
This will never be over.

For too many have never received any acknowledgement from the State for what they have suffered and I don't know enough about the bespoke legislation or the advices from AG which prompted such, but suffice to say I cannot understand the reluctance of the Coroner to do his/her duty. Human remains found in any location demand a narrative in as far as possible, as to the circumstances of their death. There are 796 deaths almost all without medical certification. We know that for years now - we know the remains date to the home since March last year. Why the delay?

Presently the Government do not recognise survivors as 'survivors' and are determined to delay until siblings of the disappeared have themselves lost their battle for life.
There are 796 deaths almost all without medical certification


- that's not true

- they were all issued with Death Certs on causes of death


What more do you think there could be from such a long time ago?
 

StarryPlough01

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The Minister said re / Legislation:

- The legal advice of the Attorney General is that the existing legislative pathways are inadequate to sustain exhumations and the related forensic actions in the circumstances of the Tuam site. Before significant works at this site can commence we must ensure that there is a sound legal basis upon which to do so.

- a small cross-departmental team would be established to advance the preparation of the legislation

- Departments involved to include Minister for Justice, the Minister for Housing and Local Government and the Minister for Rural Affairs and Community Development.

- Mentioned the importance of the role of drafting necessary legislation as well as developing project plans to make sure that future actions continue to meet the highest possible standards.

On the Coroner the Minister said:


A Coroner may open an inquest into a death, or seek a license for exhumation of remains, only in specified and limited circumstances. Should further information emerge in relation to the remains then it would be a matter for the Coroner to consider what response may be appropriate in accordance with his independent functions. I expect the Coroner to remain is close contact with relevant agencies as matters progress.

There are death certs for #796 deaths of infants and children; and #6 deaths of mothers.

A substantial number of remains were found in March 2017 in test excavation under direction from Commission of Investigation, and those were dated to the period of the home (1925-1961).

Surely, that alone is enough to warrant action by the Coroner? One death would demand such, ten deaths would determine it as a mass grave, why the delay?


Bespoke legislation being drawn up which is unique to Tuam - does that mean that it cannot be used for other such excavations in the future?

Are there international comparsions where we can gain knowledge?

I am fearful of the Government, rather than expose what happened and how children died at alarming rates will seek to suppress such information coming forward. Each child who passed away in the Home deserves full forensic investigation of all evidence, both documentary evidence and via the remains themselves, so that the true narrative can be documented and protected.

25.10.18 Dáil Statements on Tuam Mother and Baby Home Dr Katherine Zappone TD, Minister for Children and Youth Affairs | dcya.gov.ie 2018


Thank you HWGA. Please read my comments below:



Starry: -----> Minister for Children Katherine Zappone has never explained her reasons why new legislation is needed. :mad2:



- The legal advice of the Attorney General is that the existing legislative pathways are inadequate to sustain exhumations and the related forensic actions in the circumstances of the Tuam site. Before significant works at this site can commence we must ensure that there is a sound legal basis upon which to do so.

Starry: -----> Why is Minister Zappone being so coy? ^ ^ ^ :mad2:




Continuing... Minister Katherine Zappone ~


A Coroner may open an inquest into a death, or seek a license for exhumation of remains, only in specified and limited circumstances. Should further information emerge in relation to the remains then it would be a matter for the Coroner to consider what response may be appropriate in accordance with his independent functions. I expect the Coroner to remain is close contact with relevant agencies as matters progress.


HereWeGoAgain replies regarding above quoted Coronial Inquest comment made by Minister Zappone ~


There are death certs for #796 deaths of infants and children; and #6 deaths of mothers.

A substantial number of remains were found in March 2017 in test excavation under direction from Commission of Investigation, and those were dated to the period of the home (1925-1961).

Surely, that alone is enough to warrant action by the Coroner? One death would demand such, ten deaths would determine it as a mass grave, why the delay?


Starry: -----> Why is the information already extant not sufficient to warrant action by the coroner for a sustained exhumation? :mad2:



*MINISTER FOR CHILDREN KATHERINE ZAPPONE MUST ANSWER.*





______________



Starry:


I wrote quite a bit in Original [orphan] Castlepollard thread about the mass graves of the disappeared during the Spanish Civil War 1936 - 1939 and ensuing dictatorship of General Francisco Franco. These bodies were covered in quicklime and dispersed throughout the country to avoid identification from acquaintances. This is the same period as Tuam Mother and Baby Home.




Spanish Mayor Oscar Puente said: 'This is a question of national dignity and human rights rather than opening the wounds of the past. ….' And the city 'could not simply look away' :thumbsup:


Spanish archaeologists dig up more civil war dead | Daily Mail Online



Authorities in Valladolid paid 25,000 euros (£22,000) employing a professional team to examine the site with work starting in April 2016.



Mayor Oscar Puente said:


'This is a question of national dignity and human rights rather than opening the wounds of the past. ….'

The city 'could not simply look away', said Mayor Oscar Puente as an excavation of the graves revealed up to 200 skeletons, with many more likely hidden below the ground
 

HereWeGoAgain

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Messages
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There are 796 deaths almost all without medical certification


- that's not true

- they were all issued with Death Certs on causes of death


What more do you think there could be from such a long time ago?
The deaths were not medically certified.
The signature on the death certs - many of them - is that of Bina Rabbitte, a domestic at the Home.
She did not have the qualification to certify such deaths.
Therefore those certificates are null and void.
 
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