Catholic Church's influence before De Valera ?

SlabMurphy

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Now we all know how Dev pandered to the CC. However, what I'm wondering is -

A) In return for support, did the British govt. created the seperated school system for ireland ? And if so, what other areas did the British govt. support Catholic Church control ?

B) The Free State administration under Cosgrave continued the educate system installed by the British and how else did they pander to them in return for denouncing Irish Republicans ?
 


onlyasking

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Now we all know how Dev pandered to the CC. However, what I'm wondering is -

A) In return for support, did the British govt. created the seperated school system for ireland ? And if so, what other areas did the British govt. support Catholic Church control ?

B) The Free State administration under Cosgrave continued the educate system installed by the British and how else did they pander to them in return for denouncing Irish Republicans ?
From Rome's backing for King Billy through the Irish hierarchy's gratitude to Britain for emancipation and on to the hierarchy's trenchant anti-revolutionary line when the revolution was being crushed by British-backed Irish conservatives during the Civil War, Ireland's two oppressive power blocks in London and Rome have often found mutual benefit in our subjugation.

As for Dev's relations with the church, they weren't that good during the twenties, and Cosgrave and the rest of the regime were more than willing to look after the hierarchy's interests, particularly as the members of the hierarchy were from the same well-off backgrounds and schools as the Cosgraves and Fitzgeralds of the new regime, not to mention the DeValeras themselves.

We swapped the combined oppression of empire and church for the more deeply ingrained combination of Rome and its Irish catholic ruling class.

Some fine day we'll see off the latter. The sooner the better. Only then will we stand any chance of introducing logical thinking into Irish life.
 

Nem

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A) In return for support, did the British govt. created the seperated school system for ireland ? And if so, what other areas did the British govt. support Catholic Church control ?
I can't recall there being anything in state papers that specifically relates to that. IMHO there was no significant interest in the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland before partition.

B) The Free State administration under Cosgrave continued the educate system installed by the British and how else did they pander to them in return for denouncing Irish Republicans ?
Interesting point. I think the point of education was quite far down considering the fall-out of the Civil War. On a more general note, the development of education in Ireland after independence is I think quite well set out in Vincent Comerford's book 'Inventing the Nation.

 

Catalpa

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Now we all know how Dev pandered to the CC. However, what I'm wondering is -

A) In return for support, did the British govt. created the seperated school system for ireland ? And if so, what other areas did the British govt. support Catholic Church control ?

B) The Free State administration under Cosgrave continued the educate system installed by the British and how else did they pander to them in return for denouncing Irish Republicans ?
Er how exactly did Dev 'pander' to the Catholic Church exactly?

The vast majority of the State's population was Catholic and went to Mass weekly.

This wasn't really an issue at all

- until the mid/late 1960s when rapid social change began to be apparent in this State and in other Countries with large Catholic populations.

There is nothing to indicate that the Catholic Church was not considered part and parcel of the makeup of the Nation when Dev was in power.

Name any politician (other than Noel Browne) who ever publicly had an issue with this?
 

SlabMurphy

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From Rome's backing for King Billy through the Irish hierarchy's gratitude to Britain for emancipation and on to the hierarchy's trenchant anti-revolutionary line when the revolution was being crushed by British-backed Irish conservatives during the Civil War, Ireland's two oppressive power blocks in London and Rome have often found mutual benefit in our subjugation.

As for Dev's relations with the church, they weren't that good during the twenties, and Cosgrave and the rest of the regime were more than willing to look after the hierarchy's interests, particularly as the members of the hierarchy were from the same well-off backgrounds and schools as the Cosgraves and Fitzgeralds of the new regime, not to mention the DeValeras themselves.

We swapped the combined oppression of empire and church for the more deeply ingrained combination of Rome and its Irish catholic ruling class.

Some fine day we'll see off the latter. The sooner the better. Only then will we stand any chance of introducing logical thinking into Irish life.
Yes Cosgrove and co. did look after the CC's demands. Divorce allowing was banned in 1924 and selling artificial contraception was made illegal. A lot of people might have attributed these kind of policy's to Dev, but Fine Gael got in there first.
 
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SlabMurphy

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I can't recall there being anything in state papers that specifically relates to that. IMHO there was no significant interest in the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland before partition.
During the Tithe war* 1831 - 1836, the CC not surprisingly supported the campaign to end the payment of these taxes. Because of the campaign the British decided it the collection of tithes was unproductive as “it cost a shilling to collect tuppence”. Instead they reduced the amount payable by about a quarter and made the remainder payable in rent to landlords. They in turn would pass payment to the authorities. Tithes were thus effectively added to a tenant's rent payment.

In order to get the CC to support this con job they also introduced a bill dividing the schools on religious lines and offered the control freaks of the CC the control of their portion. And when the Free State came into being, one of the first things the FS did was to assure the CC that the education system would remain the same.

*Tithe War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

SirHenryGrattan

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Now we all know how Dev pandered to the CC. However, what I'm wondering is -

A) In return for support, did the British govt. created the seperated school system for ireland ? And if so, what other areas did the British govt. support Catholic Church control ?

B) The Free State administration under Cosgrave continued the educate system installed by the British and how else did they pander to them in return for denouncing Irish Republicans ?
If you live in a country where 95% of the population speak Spanish then, more than likely like Spanish will be the official language and the business of government will be conducted through Spanish. Is this pandering to Spanish language speakers or just a reflection of what most people want?

If you live in a country where 95% of the population are strict Muslims then it is more than likely that the laws of this country will reflect Islam and alcohol will be banned. Is this pandering to Muslims or simply giving people what they want?

95% of the population in Southern Ireland were Catholic who opposed divorce and contraception and De Valera gave them what they wanted which was a ban on divorce and contraception.

Are you seriously trying to suggest that the majority of people in Ireland say up to the late 1980s favoured divorce and successive Irish governments refused to give it to them because they pandered to the RCC?
 

SlabMurphy

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Er how exactly did Dev 'pander' to the Catholic Church exactly?
The vast majority of the State's population was Catholic and went to Mass weekly.

This wasn't really an issue at all

- until the mid/late 1960s when rapid social change began to be apparent in this State and in other Countries with large Catholic populations.

There is nothing to indicate that the Catholic Church was not considered part and parcel of the makeup of the Nation when Dev was in power.

Name any politician (other than Noel Browne) who ever publicly had an issue with this?
Dev's 1937 Constitution recognised the "special position of the Holy Catholic Apostolic and Roman Church". Their was also the bans on divorce, contraception, the CC reinforced public censorship and maintained its own list of banned literature which influenced the State's list.
 

SirHenryGrattan

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Yes Cosgrove and co. did look after the CC's demands. Divorce allowing was banned in 1924 and selling artificial contraception was made illegal. A lot of people might have attributed these kind of policy's to Dev, but Fine Gael got in there first.
I seem to remember a divorce referendum in 1986 that was massively defeated and another divorce referendum in 1994 that scraped through with a 0.28 percent majority. If the RCC was so powerful why didn't it just veto those referendums and depose the government.
 

SirHenryGrattan

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Dev's 1937 Constitution recognised the "special position of the Holy Catholic Apostolic and Roman Church". Their was also the bans on divorce, contraception, the CC reinforced public censorship and maintained its own list of banned literature which influenced the State's list.
And that constitution was accepted by the public in a referendum and De Valera became the most successful Irish leader ever being elected multiple times with large majorities despite a PR system that makes it tremendously difficult for a single party to even get a majority.

Quite a lot of historians used to maintain that WW2 neutrality was foisted on the Irish people who in fact were clamouring to go to war against Germany and support Britain. That theory has been comprehensively debunked and even Kevin Myers now accepts that De Valera's policy of neutrality was overwhelmingly supported by the majority of the Irish people.

Conservative populations vote for conservative politicians. Ireland held out against the sexual revolution for much longer than the rest of Europe because Victorian values persisted for much longer in Ireland than elsewhere.
 

SideysGhost

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Ireland held out against the sexual revolution for much longer than the rest of Europe because Victorian values persisted for much longer in Ireland than elsewhere.
And the source of those values was.....the British endowment and control of Maynooth.
 

Munnkeyman

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I'd recommend reading an article by Charles Kickham published in the
Last print of the Irish People, Last Number, 16 September, 1865.
Charles J. Kickham, "No Priests in Politics", 1863.
The day before publishing the Irish People was shut down.

My Opinion:
This article was published in response to repeated denuciations of The Fenian Brotherhood by the
Catholic Church in Ireland. The Fenian Brotherhood were hopeful of Church support to legitimise their
campaign ,while initially the clergy prevaricated with some members announcing support based on the
aim of the disestablishment of the Church of Ireland. However later the Bishops in Ireland were
generally outspoken in their condemnation. A bitter war of words ensued between Bishop Paul Cullen
and Charles J. Kickham the author of this article.
The language usage in this article is particularly interesting and although the author of the text does not
explicitly mention why the Church is politically outspoken, he does offer one terse discourse on the
main reason publicly stated in opposition to The Fenian Brotherhood
“In fact, the cry raised against oaths and secrecy was a mere pretence”
From the point of view of the Clergy the use of the word
“Revolution” on numerous occasions in the text and its associated connotations with regard to the Church belies one of the main reasons for the political activism of the Clergy.
The concept of a nationalist revolution in Ireland must have evoked an
immense feeling of impending disaster for Irish Clerics.
To illustrate this reasoning we must look at the fading power of the Church in Europe;
The French Revolution was disastrous for the Catholic Church.
The Revolution brought about a massive shift in power from the Church to the First French Republic and all Church land was
subsequently nationalised. A more contemporaneous example to highlight this was during The Second
Italian War of Independence which resulted in the annexation of the Papal States in 1861 and the
declaration of Rome as the Capital of the new Kingdom of Italy.
In 1864 Pope Pius IX anathematized the notion of “A free church in a free state” in his “Syllabus of
Errors” of which Bishop Cullen as a theologian must have been aware, this therefore would have made
it impossible for the Catholic Primacy to do anything but denounce a Nationalist movement in Ireland.
This article was Kickhams' swansong.One day prior to its publication the offices of the Irish People
were raided and subsequently the majority of the leadership arrested.The failure to garnish Church
support severely damaged the legitimacy of the Fenian Brotherhood, as Ireland was moving through a
period of a “devotional revolution “ credited largely to Bishop Cullen.

So basically to have a revolution Church blessing was a prerequisite.:eek::mad:
 

Sean O'Brian

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Cullen was in Italy when Mazzini and his followers were attacking the Papal States and was soured by seeing people murdered all around him, including priests and nuns.

If I thought of the French Revolution and the actions of Young Italy as the models for an Irish nationalist movement then I would be suspect as well. As it happened Irish nationalists did not emulate these movements.
 
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Barbarian

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Now we all know how Dev pandered to the CC.
Er how exactly did Dev 'pander' to the Catholic Church exactly?
Ya see, he read it somewhere so it must be true.

Despite the fact that against the expressed wishes of JC McQuaid and Pius XI, Dev refused to recognise the catholic church in the constitution as the state religion to the point that the Vatican refused to approve the constitution of 1937 especially as the document text refered to 'other Christians'.
 

SirHenryGrattan

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And the source of those values was.....the British endowment and control of Maynooth.
Nope. The source of those values was the "plain people of Ireland".

Try and imagine Ireland as being one third conservative Catholic, one third orthodox Jewish and one third radical Islam. There are major doctrinal differences between those religions but they all have the same very conservative approach to sex and morals.
 

SideysGhost

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Nope. The source of those values was the "plain people of Ireland".

Try and imagine Ireland as being one third conservative Catholic, one third orthodox Jewish and one third radical Islam. There are major doctrinal differences between those religions but they all have the same very conservative approach to sex and morals.
Yeah right. Every piece of evidence we have says that for thousands of years Irish "sexual morals" were.....fairly loose, shall we say? We were a right bunch of swingers for a long long time, almost notoriously so all over Europe, right up until the 19th century and the enforcement of a particular Irish Catholic brand of extremely narrow conservatism by the British-funded Maynooth dancing to a British agenda.

London and Rome, the twin colonisers, working hand in glove to oppress the plain people of Ireland and systematically rape us of our true heritage, culture and character. As both continue to do so to this very day.
 
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Munnkeyman

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Cullen was in Italy when Mazzini and his followers were attacking the Papal States and was soured by seeing people murdered all around him, including priests and nuns.

If I thought of the French Revolution and the actions of Young Italy as the models for an Irish nationalist movement then I would be suspect as well. As it happened Irish nationalists did not emulate these movements.
I'm sure Cullen was more worried about his own skin there was never a threat of murder against priests or nuns for that matter.
Then again the Roman Catholic Church didn't have an army in Ireland.
 

Riadach

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Nope. The source of those values was the "plain people of Ireland".

Try and imagine Ireland as being one third conservative Catholic, one third orthodox Jewish and one third radical Islam. There are major doctrinal differences between those religions but they all have the same very conservative approach to sex and morals.
How many of those values do you find before the endowment of Maynooth in 1795?
 

Sean O'Brian

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I'm sure Cullen was more worried about his own skin there was never a threat of murder against priests or nuns for that matter.
All of the biographical info I've read on Cullen suggests that he thought Irish nationalist movements risked going the way of Young Italy. Even if he was wrong that seems to be what he thought. You're only suggesting cowardice on his part because of your antipathy towards the Catholic Church.
 


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