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Catholics For The Union?


Billy the Prod

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 2, 2012
Messages
591
In the past Unionism in Ireland was an ideology which favoured the continuation of the political union between the islands of Ireland and Great Britain. Since partition in 1921 and the separation of the Irish Free State from the United Kingdom as a Dominion, and its subsequent emergence as an independent state, Unionism in Ireland has mostly focused on maintaining the place of Northern Ireland within the United Kingdom.

The political relationship between England and Ireland dates back to the 12th century Norman invasion, which incidentally began with an invitation from the Irish King of Leinster Dermot McMurrough, who requested English assistance in regaining his throne. In the Act of Union of 1800 the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland was created. In 1922 twenty-six counties of Ireland gained independence from the U.K. as a U.K. Dominion and were christened "the Irish Free State". In 1949 this Dominion became a Republic and left the Commonwealth. The remaining six counties in the north constituted the country we know as "Northern Ireland", which has remained part of the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland".

Today Unionism is overwhelmingly a Protestant supported political phenomenon, concerned with the governance of and relationship between Northern Ireland and Great Britain. In the Irish Republic there is little to no support for Northern Unionists who would advocate the Republic sacrificing her independence and rejoining the UK, in fact the mere thought is ludicrous, and those in the South who would support the continued union of Great Britain and Northern Ireland may be viewed by many Irishmen as unpatriotic.

Today most Unionists belong to one of various denominations of Protestantism. Nationalists are mostly of a Catholic background. However, these are generalisations as it has not always been the case, as there have been both Protestant Republicans and Nationalists, and Catholic Unionists, albeit constituting tiny minorities within their respective traditions.

I'd like to see not a short term solution to the long term problem of Unionism V's Nationalism on the island of Ireland, but a permanent solution to this long term problem, and in this thread I posed a very difficult question to my fellow Protestants on this board, the question being: Shall there ever come a time, when you, the Protestant people of Northern Ireland, shall cease to view consenting to a united Ireland as "Surrender"? I elaborated with the personal view that I was "in favour of a united Ireland, if it was brought about via exclusively peaceful means, and if there there were steadfast assurances and copper-fastened guarantees built into any future reunification agreement, that in the event of persecution, discrimination, alienation, and marginalisation of the Protestant, (ex) Unionist people in a reunified Ireland, the British government would have the right to intervention".

Those are my words, and I'll stand by them. In this thread I want to pose an equally difficult question to Irish Catholic Nationalists and Republicans north and south of the border, so as to lend equilibrium to the search for a permanent solution to this age-old territorial, political problem:

Shall there ever come a time, when you, the Nationalist and Republican people of Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, shall cease to view the country we know as "Northern Ireland" as an illegitimate political entity, a statelet, and refrain from viewing and referring to it as the "occupied six counties"?

The Good Friday Agreement which was ratified with very high support in referendums north and south of the border communicated to the world that the great majority of people on this island did not support the armed campaign of the PIRA. The fact that here in the north we are witnessing the very surprising and unprecedented phenomenon of many young Catholics converting to Unionism suggests that they see some inherent value in the sustainment of the political union of Great Britian and Northern Ireland. Perhaps they recognise that two countries on one island has its social and economic advantages in terms of employment and social mobility?

If all Nationalists and Republicans gave their support to the sustainment of the Union we'd have a solution, but that would of course mean Nats and Reps having to abandon their political principles, values and ideals. A tall order. Similarly, if Unionists came around to the concept of peaceful Irish reunification, and chose to enter a united Ireland of their own volition, with safeguards and assurances built into any future reunification agreement, equally; we'd have a solution.

But this one is for the Nationalists and Republicans. State your case. You can't do any worse than evade the question the way some Unionists did in my previous thread on the question of consent to Irish reunification.
 
Last edited:

Ren84

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 14, 2011
Messages
50,016
A good OP. There will always be Irish people in the north who will see themselves as Irish only and wanting a UI. However the vast majority of Catholics will simply shrug their shoulders, accept British rule without too much fuss and carry on with their lives. It is less about supporting the union, more a case of quiet resignation.
 

Ó Ghabhainn

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 2, 2009
Messages
3,144
I preferred your other OP to be honest. :)

I pretty much accept that things are what they are, even if I desire something different. Things are looking positive but, as I said on the other thread (in a round about way), this is my home and always will be regardless of who the rulers are.
 

between the bridges

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 21, 2011
Messages
45,683
BP no harm but imho you are laboring the I posed a very difficult question to my fellow Protestants on this board, a bit!! plenty of PUL can debate the pro's and con's of a UI, just because they may not share your views on that doesn't make it 'difficult'! the only difficultly is actually 'debating' on a internet forum were PUL are regularly referred to as a nazi's... seig heil

now sorry to be pedantic but because i am C of I i could in all honesty reply to your question Catholics For The Union? by saying yes i am!!
 

Ren84

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 14, 2011
Messages
50,016
BP no harm but imho you are laboring the I posed a very difficult question to my fellow Protestants on this board, a bit!! plenty of PUL can debate the pro's and con's of a UI, just because they may not share your views on that doesn't make it 'difficult'! the only difficultly is actually 'debating' on a internet forum were PUL are regularly referred to as a nazi's... seig heil

now sorry to be pedantic but because i am C of I i could in all honesty reply to your question Catholics For The Union? by saying yes i am!!
You're not a Catholic FFS. Quit with that tiresome old bollox of a routine.
 

between the bridges

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 21, 2011
Messages
45,683
You're not a Catholic FFS. Quit with that tiresome old bollox of a routine.
try an learn something it will do you good...Declaration:
The Church of Ireland is part of the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church, worshipping the one true God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. It professes the faith uniquely revealed in the Holy Scriptures and set forth in the catholic creeds: which faith the Church is called upon to proclaim afresh in each generation. Led by the Holy Spirit, it has borne witness to Christian truth in its historic formularies, the Thirty-nine Articles of Religion, the Book of Common Prayer, the Ordering of Bishops, Priests and Deacons and the Declaration prefixed to the Statutes of the Church of Ireland (1870).Church of Ireland - A province of the Anglican Communion

every Sunday every c of I church the congregation will say the A,creed...

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting.
 

between the bridges

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 21, 2011
Messages
45,683
Let me stop you right there kiddo, just because you call yourself a Catholic doesn't mean it is true. I can call myself a Jew doesn't mean I am one FFS.
yes your holiness...Dismay and anger as Pope declares Protestants cannot have churches | World news | The Guardian

simple facts old boy i am a catholic (as are Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans, and some Methodists) however i am not a Roman Catholic, now much as i enjoy watching you make a complete aras of yourself i don't think we should derail the topic any further...
 

Gurdiev

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2011
Messages
7,239
try an learn something it will do you good...Declaration:
The Church of Ireland is part of the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church, worshipping the one true God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. It professes the faith uniquely revealed in the Holy Scriptures and set forth in the catholic creeds: which faith the Church is called upon to proclaim afresh in each generation. Led by the Holy Spirit, it has borne witness to Christian truth in its historic formularies, the Thirty-nine Articles of Religion, the Book of Common Prayer, the Ordering of Bishops, Priests and Deacons and the Declaration prefixed to the Statutes of the Church of Ireland (1870).Church of Ireland - A province of the Anglican Communion

every Sunday every c of I church the congregation will say the A,creed...

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting.
Actually , you're not really a Protestant. It's just the Vatican that gets your goat .
 

between the bridges

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 21, 2011
Messages
45,683
Actually , you're not really a Protestant. It's just the Vatican that gets your goat .
nope its the OO thats get my...
 

Gurdiev

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2011
Messages
7,239
In the past Unionism in Ireland was an ideology which favoured the continuation of the political union between the islands of Ireland and Great Britain. Since partition in 1921 and the separation of the Irish Free State from the United Kingdom as a Dominion, and its subsequent emergence as an independent state, Unionism in Ireland has mostly focused on maintaining the place of Northern Ireland within the United Kingdom.

The political relationship between England and Ireland dates back to the 12th century Norman invasion, which incidentally began with an invitation from the Irish King of Leinster Dermot McMurrough, who requested English assistance in regaining his throne. In the Act of Union of 1800 the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland was created. In 1922 twenty-six counties of Ireland gained independence from the U.K. as a U.K. Dominion and were christened "the Irish Free State". In 1949 this Dominion became a Republic and left the Commonwealth. The remaining six counties in the north constituted the country we know as "Northern Ireland", which has remained part of the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland".

Today Unionism is overwhelmingly a Protestant supported political phenomenon, concerned with the governance of and relationship between Northern Ireland and Great Britain. In the Irish Republic there is little to no support for Northern Unionists who would advocate the Republic sacrificing her independence and rejoining the UK, in fact the mere thought is ludicrous, and those in the South who would support the continued union of Great Britain and Northern Ireland may be viewed by many Irishmen as unpatriotic.

Today most Unionists belong to one of various denominations of Protestantism. Nationalists are mostly of a Catholic background. However, these are generalisations as it has not always been the case, as there have been both Protestant Republicans and Nationalists, and Catholic Unionists, albeit constituting tiny minorities within their respective traditions.

I'd like to see not a short term solution to the long term problem of Unionism V's Nationalism on the island of Ireland, but a permanent solution to this long term problem, and in this thread I posed a very difficult question to my fellow Protestants on this board, the question being: Shall there ever come a time, when you, the Protestant people of Northern Ireland, shall cease to view consenting to a united Ireland as "Surrender"? I elaborated with the personal view that I was "in favour of a united Ireland, if it was brought about via exclusively peaceful means, and if there there were steadfast assurances and copper-fastened guarantees built into any future reunification agreement, that in the event of persecution, discrimination, alienation, and marginalisation of the Protestant, (ex) Unionist people in a reunified Ireland, the British government would have the right to intervention".

Those are my words, and I'll stand by them. In this thread I want to pose an equally difficult question to Irish Catholic Nationalists and Republicans north and south of the border, so as to lend equilibrium to the search for a permanent solution to this age-old territorial, political problem:

Shall there ever come a time, when you, the Nationalist and Republican people of Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, shall cease to view the country we know as "Northern Ireland" as an illegitimate political entity, a statelet, and refrain from viewing and referring to it as the "occupied six counties"?

The Good Friday Agreement which was ratified with very high support in referendums north and south of the border communicated to the world that the great majority of people on this island did not support the armed campaign of the PIRA. The fact that here in the north we are witnessing the very surprising and unprecedented phenomenon of many young Catholics converting to Unionism suggests that they see some inherent value in the sustainment of the political union of Great Britian and Northern Ireland. Perhaps they recognise that two countries on one island has its social and economic advantages in terms of employment and social mobility?

If all Nationalists and Republicans gave their support to the sustainment of the Union we'd have a solution, but that would of course mean Nats and Reps having to abandon their political principles, values and ideals. A tall order. Similarly, if Unionists came around to the concept of peaceful Irish reunification, and chose to enter a united Ireland of their own volition, with safeguards and assurances built into any future reunification agreement, equally; we'd have a solution.

But this one is for the Nationalists and Republicans. State your case. You can't do any worse than evade the question the way some Unionists did in my previous thread on the question of consent to Irish reunification.

Love yourselves, and one another ...I've got work to do.

The majority of people are content if they are earning a fair , living wage, if they have access to decent education , healthcare and the opportunity to progress socially, and if they are free from any form of discrimination due to race , religion or sex.

I would expect that most Catholics in NI today could tick those boxes, and as a result have little no desire for a change of jurisdiction.

It can't be denied that to belong to the United Kingdom is to be in a fairly safe and powerful position, relative to many small , poor nations on the periphery of Europe.

Whilst I would like to see a united Irish Island nation forging ahead in the future, I can accept that many Catholic voters might well choose the safety of their present position.
 

Ren84

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 14, 2011
Messages
50,016
yes your holiness...Dismay and anger as Pope declares Protestants cannot have churches | World news | The Guardian

simple facts old boy i am a catholic (as are Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans, and some Methodists) however i am not a Roman Catholic, now much as i enjoy watching you make a complete aras of yourself i don't think we should derail the topic any further...
You're not a Catholic, but I agree, let's leave it at that. :)
 

InsideImDancing

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 3, 2011
Messages
21,961
BP no harm but imho you are laboring the I posed a very difficult question to my fellow Protestants on this board, a bit!! plenty of PUL can debate the pro's and con's of a UI, just because they may not share your views on that doesn't make it 'difficult'! the only difficultly is actually 'debating' on a internet forum were PUL are regularly referred to as a nazi's... seig heil

now sorry to be pedantic but because i am C of I i could in all honesty reply to your question Catholics For The Union? by saying yes i am!!
Worst.Catholics.ever.


























Sorry, can't stop, it's like a disease.
 

InsideImDancing

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 3, 2011
Messages
21,961
Are CoI Prods actually members of a Catholic re-enactment/appreciation society? :shock:
Are they even prods! btb?
 

Gurdiev

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 24, 2011
Messages
7,239
You're not a Catholic, but I agree, let's leave it at that. :)
Are CoI Prods actually members of a Catholic re-enactment/appreciation society? :shock:
The Anglicans are dying to get back in the fold. If only they could put their Gay clergy back in the closet, and shake off the Ladies , I think the Vatican would open its doors to them .
 

Ren84

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 14, 2011
Messages
50,016
Are they even prods! btb?
Define a Protestant. The OO rule book seems to only define a Prod as someone who "isn't a taig".

If the Catholic Church in Ireland split away from Rome but still kept everything the same (mass, communion, all the rest of that shyte) would Catholics like me and you be allowed to join the OO.........hypothetically speaking of course?
 

InsideImDancing

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 3, 2011
Messages
21,961
Define a Protestant. The OO rule book seems to only define a Prod as someone who "isn't a taig".

If the Catholic Church in Ireland split away from Rome but still kept everything the same (mass, communion, all the rest of that shyte) would Catholics like me and you be allowed to join the OO.........hypothetically speaking of course?
Doubt it, one must prove one's Loyalty first, a bit like getting a job in the north back in the day.
 
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