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Census release - Welsh Language


Cai

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Joined
May 30, 2004
Messages
7,897
Detailed census data relating to the Welsh language was released yesterday. Local authority figures & national figures had already been released & they showed a decrease in the percentage who speak Welsh (from 20.5% to 19%) nationally & a decline in the Welsh speaking West together with a small increase in Cardiff & a couple of other South Eastern areas.

But the detailed figures give a more precise picture. The percentage of Welsh speakers is falling like a stone in many South Western wards, but the actual numbers are increasing rapidly in a number of inner city Cardiff wards. Meanwhile in the North West there was a very sharp decline in the university city of Bangor, but many strongly Welsh speaking wards did remarkably well with a number seeing an increase in the percentage & numbers of Welsh speakers.

So Welsh speaking Wales is rapidly becoming a feature of the North West, the South West is becoming anglicised (in linguistic terms) & numbers are increasing in the Cardiff area.

For anyone who's interested in the details, this interactive map provides the details - New: 2001 vs 2011 Census - Welsh Language

Any thoughts & any implications for Ireland.
 

Clanrickard

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Apr 25, 2008
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33,034
The nonsense of trying to "revive the language".
Do you have to work hard at being an ignoramus or does it come naturally?
 

Barroso

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3,780
In relation to the decrease in percentages, I would ask one main question: has Wales seen anything like the level of immigration (other than from English speaking places) in the last 10 or 15 years that Ireland has?
If so, how much of the change is due to that sort of immigration? Immigrants of this sort do not take much part in the life of the community they live in, and their children are likely to integrate linguistically (they'll likely pick up both languages as they grow up; unlike immigrants from England etc, their kids will have no-one at home telling them Welsh is inferior.)
If most of the immigration is Anglophone, yes, that is a greater concern.
If however the drop is due to Welsh people changing to English, that is a larger challenge.
 
R

Ramps

You're a spiteful ball bag. Why don't you go kick a dog or something if you need to release your inner toxins.
Violence ain't my thing. I know that's how you SF dregs deal with your frustrations, so you might find that strange.
 

Clanrickard

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33,034
Ignoramus? Ouch.

The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
 

DJP

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Aug 2, 2006
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12,278
Any thoughts & any implications for Ireland.
Generally only people who are bilingual or speak more that one or two languages have any interest in minority languages. As someone who speaks two languages (although I am not totally fluent in Irish) I am encouraged to see Welsh grow in a lot of Wales and hope that it will grow strongly throughout the country in future years. I have a similar hope for Scots Gaelic and indeed all minority languages.

However, in Ireland if the Official Languages Act review to be announced soon does not see equal-status for the Irish language throughout the public sector then I am not hopeful that enough of the building work will have been done by the current Government for Irish to grow noticeably in the years ahead of us.

A token attitude by the Government may be reinforced by the Government in the weeks ahead of us. I don't doubt the commitment of the majority of Irish speakers and genuine lovers of the language in both Fine Gael and Labour but I am not certain if the OLA can be strengthed adequately so that the circumstances will have been created for Irish to grow radically. Even if the OLA review is, to me personally and others, good or even perfect the work will not all have been done but I believe most of the heavy lifting will have been. I am thinking personally- and I know I have raised this for several years now- about our road signage considering that all other signs in the public sector have to be printed the same size in Irish and English bar these. The message that the current position of Irish sends out on them is that Irish is a token language in Ireland. I know that Enda Kenny, Eamon Gilmore, Dinny McGinley and others- and maybe even the majority or vast majority of Oireachtas members- would like equal status generally instead of mostly but I am not sure if there are enough Irish speakers in Ireland for the change to be sold in the short to medium term.
 

Cai

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Joined
May 30, 2004
Messages
7,897
In relation to the decrease in percentages, I would ask one main question: has Wales seen anything like the level of immigration (other than from English speaking places) in the last 10 or 15 years that Ireland has?
If so, how much of the change is due to that sort of immigration? Immigrants of this sort do not take much part in the life of the community they live in, and their children are likely to integrate linguistically (they'll likely pick up both languages as they grow up; unlike immigrants from England etc, their kids will have no-one at home telling them Welsh is inferior.)
If most of the immigration is Anglophone, yes, that is a greater concern.
If however the drop is due to Welsh people changing to English, that is a larger challenge.
There has been immigration to Wales - roughly a quarter of the population was born outside the country. Some is from outside the UK, but most is from England. Welsh people not passing the language on is a problem inEastern Carmathenshire, but in most other areas it isn't a problem. The age structure is OK in most (though not all) of the country - with younger age groups more likely tospeak Welsh.
 
R

Ramps

The highest form of ignorance is when you reject something you don't know anything about.
Wayne Dyer
Yeah, I envy your knowledge. Hopefully, some day, if I try very, very hard, I'll know something about a subject that is so difficult to understand.
 
R

Ramps

Generally only people who are bilingual or speak more that one or two languages have any interest in minority languages. As someone who speaks two languages (although I am not totally fluent in Irish) I am encouraged to see Welsh grow in a lot of Wales and hope that it will grow strongly throughout the country in future years. I have a similar hope for Scots Gaelic and indeed all minority languages.

However, in Ireland if the Official Languages Act review to be announced soon does not see equal-status for the Irish language throughout the public sector then I am not hopeful that enough of the building work will have been done by the current Government for Irish to grow noticeably in the years ahead of us.

A token attitude by the Government may be reinforced by the Government in the weeks ahead of us. I don't doubt the commitment of the majority of Irish speakers and genuine lovers of the language in both Fine Gael and Labour but I am not certain if the OLA can be strengthed adequately so that the circumstances will have been created for Irish to grow radically. Even if the OLA review is, to me personally and others, good or even perfect the work will not all have been done but I believe most of the heavy lifting will have been. I am thinking personally- and I know I have raised this for several years now- about our road signage considering that all other signs in the public sector have to be printed the same size in Irish and English bar these. The message that the current position of Irish sends out on them is that Irish is a token language in Ireland. I know that Enda Kenny, Eamon Gilmore, Dinny McGinley and others- and maybe even the majority or vast majority of Oireachtas members- would like equal status generally instead of mostly but I am not sure if there are enough Irish speakers in Ireland for the change to be sold in the short to medium term.
At some stage, would you mind, briefly, setting out the reasons why the Govt. should do anything re. the promotion of Irish, please?
 

neiphin

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Aug 23, 2009
Messages
5,579
At some stage, would you mind, briefly, setting out the reasons why the Govt. should do anything re. the promotion of Irish, please?
this tread is about the welsh language
can you take your trolling somewhere else
 
R

Ramps

this tread is about the welsh language
can you take your trolling somewhere else
The last sentence of the OP:

"Any thoughts & any implications for Ireland."

Does your indignation interfere with your ability to read?
 

Barroso

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Joined
Oct 1, 2011
Messages
3,780
There has been immigration to Wales - roughly a quarter of the population was born outside the country. Some is from outside the UK, but most is from England. Welsh people not passing the language on is a problem inEastern Carmathenshire, but in most other areas it isn't a problem. The age structure is OK in most (though not all) of the country - with younger age groups more likely to speak Welsh.
Good news that the language is being passed on. That is what really ensures the future of a language. Here in Ireland, I think we are starting to see growth in the numbers of good Irish speakers outside the Gaeltacht bringing up their children in Irish. Numbers are small, but it feels like there are more of them about than when a decade ago when my kids were little.

Back to Wales: as I said, the children of immigrants from outside the Anglosphere will probably integrate into whatever community they grow up in; but their parents are not likely to integrate to such an extent. The parents will affect the percentages today, but not the future of the language. The children will not have any anti-Welsh baggage from their Parents (there will be exceptions!), and will embrace whatever is around them. Encourage them, treat them as a resource to be cherished, not a problem to be feared.
The Anglos are much more of a problem, though, particularly in communities where Welsh is moderately strong - they introduce a weakening element where English is already making headway.
 

Telemachus

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Joined
Apr 8, 2004
Messages
6,565
Website
en.wikipedia.org
Detailed census data relating to the Welsh language was released yesterday. Local authority figures & national figures had already been released & they showed a decrease in the percentage who speak Welsh (from 20.5% to 19%) nationally & a decline in the Welsh speaking West together with a small increase in Cardiff & a couple of other South Eastern areas.

But the detailed figures give a more precise picture. The percentage of Welsh speakers is falling like a stone in many South Western wards, but the actual numbers are increasing rapidly in a number of inner city Cardiff wards. Meanwhile in the North West there was a very sharp decline in the university city of Bangor, but many strongly Welsh speaking wards did remarkably well with a number seeing an increase in the percentage & numbers of Welsh speakers.

So Welsh speaking Wales is rapidly becoming a feature of the North West, the South West is becoming anglicised (in linguistic terms) & numbers are increasing in the Cardiff area.

For anyone who's interested in the details, this interactive map provides the details - New: 2001 vs 2011 Census - Welsh Language

Any thoughts & any implications for Ireland.
I'm sure this is a function of Immigration. See the thread that Polish is the #2 Language in England and Wales.

Whats the difference in absolute numbers of speakers.
 
R

Ramps

I am not in Government nor have I ever been so I cannot speak for them. Why don't you ask them?
A member of the govt. didn't write on this thread about 10 minutes ago, "....I am not hopeful that enough of the building work will have been done by the current Government for Irish to grow noticeably in the years ahead of us."

If one had written it, I'd ask him.

Your not being in govt. didn't stop you expressing an opinion, did it?
 
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