Chairman Ra

Glaucon

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What if peaceful attempts (over 50 years) fail to end the tyranny? It is easy to sleep easy on another person's wound. What did YOU do to overthrow Prod tyranny in Northern Ireland/
Which action achieved more for Northern Irish Catholics: the Civil Rights movement or successive IRA border campaigns?
 


Mickeymac

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Which action achieved more for Northern Irish Catholics: the Civil Rights movement or successive IRA border campaigns?

The border campaigns ended some 10 years before the advent of the NICRA, so lets eliminate them.

NICRA were at their height of popularity amongst the Catholic community late sixties, early seventies and were powerless to prevent this.




In conclusion, I think it fair to say both examples you mentioned in your post above, were useless in achieving more for Irish Catholics...….sad really, but true nonetheless.
 

Glenshane4

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Which action achieved more for Northern Irish Catholics: the Civil Rights movement or successive IRA border campaigns?
Neither achieved very much for the victims of Prod tyranny. The UK government's belated measures to dilute Catholic support for the IRA provided a lot of relief for the oppressed Catholic people of Northern Ireland. These measures included an effective law against employment oppression (1989) and 100% funding by the State of Catholic schools (1992) - a funding enjoyed by Protestant schools since 1931. Equality for Catholic education after 61 years.
 

Mickeymac

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Neither achieved very much for the victims of Prod tyranny. The UK government's belated measures to dilute Catholic support for the IRA provided a lot of relief for the oppressed Catholic people of Northern Ireland. These measures included an effective law against employment oppression (1989) and 100% funding by the State of Catholic schools (1992) - a funding enjoyed by Protestant schools since 1931. Equality for Catholic education after 61 years.

Northern Irish Catholics received a glimmer of hope for equality with Sunningdale in 1974 which resulted in a power sharing executive at Stormont, unionists took to the streets and opposed this as they seen their supreme power and privilege coming to an end with a possible introduction of "rights" for Catholics'

They and a weak Labor government in London brought this to an end as well together with much loss of life culminating in the bombing of Dublin and Monaghan by unionists which many claim today was aided and abetted by the British.

 

Observer B

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Which action achieved more for Northern Irish Catholics: the Civil Rights movement or successive IRA border campaigns?
The Civil rights movement were on the brink of achieving some concessions (But not equal rights at that stage) from Stormont with the backing of Terence O'Neill.

Ian Paisley made sure this never happened as he conspired to bring down Terence O'Neill and end any concessions. One event which Paisley had a big hand in orchestrating was the Burntollett bridge incident: Burntollet Bridge incident - Wikipedia
on 01 January 1969. (Not a particularly detailed account on Wikipedia, Susan McKay gives a very good account in here book: Northern Protestants - An unsettled people)

This led to widespread violence in Derry and Belfast which ultimately led to the formation of the PIRA and the troubles. Terence O'Neill was gone as head of Stormont by 01 May 1969. On 30 March 1972 direct rule was implemented and Stormont was disbanded, ironically much to the chagrin of the unionist population (This caused riots in loyalist areas). The fall of Stormont was a direct result of the Troubles i.e. PIRA activity. Equal rights such as 1 man 1 vote were eventually achieved following the fall of Stormont.

There would have been no PIRA/Troubles if the Catholic population had been treated fair and equally in the NI state, simple as that. Even as late as 1969, if equal rights had been given then, I believe there would have been a high proportion of Catholics in NI today who would be happy to remain in a union with Britain.
 

Emily Davison

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In a shocking revelation that will surprise nobody a former member of the IRA army council has said that Gerry Adams was not only a member of the IRA, but chairman of the army council....


One wonders what if anything will make the drones accept what everyone else already knows...
Bridges I don't get this thread. Firstly there is nothing 'shocking' about this 'revelation'. In fact I don't see how it's news or a revelation and you yourself said 'it will surprise nobody'. So what is the thread for. And who are the 'drones' of which you speak. There can't be a person on the island that doesn't think Adams was in the IRA as it's leader or very near to leader etc.
 

Glaucon

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There would have been no PIRA/Troubles if the Catholic population had been treated fair and equally in the NI state, simple as that. Even as late as 1969, if equal rights had been given then, I believe there would have been a high proportion of Catholics in NI today who would be happy to remain in a union with Britain.
There would likely have been no Troubles but one shouldn't mistake correlation for cause. The evolution toward an equal society was begun by the NICRA and was influenced by world events. This followed a general trend toward granting minority rights (blacks, LGBTQ etc.).

Political action from various avenues buttressed this gradual evolution (SDLP, Irish government, US Congress etc.) but PIRA action cannot reasonably be held to have been the key driver that achieved equal rights for Catholics. If anything by the early 90s, continued PIRA action did far more harm than good as regards support for Republicanism within the CNR community.
 

EnglishObserver

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One right for Nationalists in NI that Republicans did achieve was more Nationalists than Loyalists ended up in jail. Oh, and more Nationalists were killed. This was within what was then a far smaller population size. Republican militants also ensured far higher unemployment in Nationalist areas during the troubles.
 

McSlaggart

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One right for Nationalists in NI that Republicans did achieve was more Nationalists than Loyalists ended up in jail. Oh, and more Nationalists were killed. This was within what was then a far smaller population size. Republican militants also ensured far higher unemployment in Nationalist areas during the troubles.

You do know the civil rights people was peaceful?
 

Glenshane4

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"One right for Nationalists in NI that Republicans did achieve was more Nationalists than Loyalists ended up in jail. Oh, and more Nationalists were killed. This was within what was then a far smaller population size."

Very true. WHY was this the case when the Prods were causing most of the trouble?

"Republican militants also ensured far higher unemployment in Nationalist areas during the troubles."

Was there lower unemployment in Catholic area before the Troubles?
 

Glenshane4

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Northern Irish Catholics received a glimmer of hope for equality with Sunningdale in 1974 which resulted in a power sharing executive at Stormont,
At the time of the Sunningdale Agreement, job discrimination in the private sector has still not been outlawed. Catholic schools did not have 100% State funding. The State schools were controlled by the Protestant Churches - and still are - even those State schools most of whose pupils are Catholics. Anti-Catholic bigots had not been purged from the Civil Service, the RUC and the Judiciary. Prods were still being allowed to strut in provocative parades through Catholic districts - and still are.

Sunningdale offered a lot less than the Good Friday Agreement and even that falls far short of equality for Catholics.
 

Glenshane4

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"Political action from various avenues buttressed this gradual evolution (SDLP, Irish government, US Congress etc.)"

Why should the ending of Prod tyranny have been gradual? It was too gradual, far too gradual. And the struggle for Catholic equality has still not been completed. In 1990 unemployment among Catholics was about twice that of Prods. No Prod has been convicted for the burning of Bombay Street.

"PIRA action cannot reasonably be held to have been the key driver that achieved equal rights for Catholics."

You might believe that. I do not.
 

Mickeymac

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At the time of the Sunningdale Agreement, job discrimination in the private sector has still not been outlawed. Catholic schools did not have 100% State funding. The State schools were controlled by the Protestant Churches - and still are - even those State schools most of whose pupils are Catholics. Anti-Catholic bigots had not been purged from the Civil Service, the RUC and the Judiciary. Prods were still being allowed to strut in provocative parades through Catholic districts - and still are.

Sunningdale offered a lot less than the Good Friday Agreement and even that falls far short of equality for Catholics.

TBF Glenshane, I did stress ......."At the time of Sunningdale, Catholics received a glimmer of HOPE towards EQUALITY.

OK, I agree with you it did not come to pass.
 

Newrybhoy

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The Civil rights movement were on the brink of achieving some concessions (But not equal rights at that stage) from Stormont with the backing of Terence O'Neill.

Ian Paisley made sure this never happened as he conspired to bring down Terence O'Neill and end any concessions. One event which Paisley had a big hand in orchestrating was the Burntollett bridge incident: Burntollet Bridge incident - Wikipedia
on 01 January 1969. (Not a particularly detailed account on Wikipedia, Susan McKay gives a very good account in here book: Northern Protestants - An unsettled people)

This led to widespread violence in Derry and Belfast which ultimately led to the formation of the PIRA and the troubles. Terence O'Neill was gone as head of Stormont by 01 May 1969. On 30 March 1972 direct rule was implemented and Stormont was disbanded, ironically much to the chagrin of the unionist population (This caused riots in loyalist areas). The fall of Stormont was a direct result of the Troubles i.e. PIRA activity. Equal rights such as 1 man 1 vote were eventually achieved following the fall of Stormont.

There would have been no PIRA/Troubles if the Catholic population had been treated fair and equally in the NI state, simple as that. Even as late as 1969, if equal rights had been given then, I believe there would have been a high proportion of Catholics in NI today who would be happy to remain in a union with Britain.
I presume you are aware that more Protestants than Catholics did not have a vote and there were more Catholics in social housing than Protestants at this time?
 

death or glory

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You do know the civil rights people was peaceful?
Do you know the SF chairman admitted that the IRA set up and controlled the supposed civil rights movement.
 

death or glory

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Mickey
Not according to Glucose on the other thread doggie, try some cold water over your head, might waken you up.;)
Mickey,
Is Glucose calling the SF chairman a liar.
We knew it was a front for the Ra back then and Kearney has only admitted it.
 

LISTOWEL MAN

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Liam Adams was given access to children after Gerry knew he was a pedo

Gerry told his own niece to sign a court injunction

Gerry knew sex abuse was the last straw for SF/IRA

they might argue the murders were "war" but they can't argue paedophilia etc
 


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