• Due to a glitch in the old vBulletin software, some users were "banned" when they tried to change their passwords at the end of February. This does not apply after the site was converted to Xenforo. If you were affected by this, please us viua the Contact us link in the footer.

Children put on Back Burner AGAIN


berberie

Active member
Joined
Apr 26, 2009
Messages
162
Someone please explain to me why each and every child in this country means so little to this government? Brian Cowen stated in the Oireachtas yesterday "that the promised referendum on children's rights will be delayed for some time."

Children's rights referendum delayed - RT News

In 2006, we, the people of this country were promised this referendum, 4 years ago!!! In 2007 they published "the Twenty-eighth Amendment of the Constitution Bill."

Constitutional Referendum on Children's Rights - Office of the Minister for Children - Department of Health and Children - Ireland

Then they formed a Joint Committee on the Constitutional Amendment on Children. However the Departments of Education and Justice have objected to some of the wording put forward by the Joint Committee as they believe the wording of the proposed referendum would 'cost them money' .......

All-party pact over children's referendum scrapped - National News, Frontpage - Independent.ie

Yes I realise what an abismal state we are in financially at the moment, however I happen to think our children (and particularly their protection) should be placed first in importance. We need to give them a voice. I also realise that it will not solve every childhood issue and problem but for those it may solve it needs to be done. It is a disgrace to our country that this has been 'in the pipeline' for 4 years and has once again been delayed.

I hope that those of you out there who are interested in this issue will make it clear to each and every one of your local representatives that you in no way find this acceptable behaviour on the part of adults who are supposed to protect the most vunerable in our society.

Finally how can the government justify delaying once more something so important?
 
Last edited:


berberie

Active member
Joined
Apr 26, 2009
Messages
162
PS made a call to 'the powers that be' and was informed that 'wording' is now in the hands of The Attorney General. It's funny isn't it, no matter who you talk to it's always someone else's fault/someone else causing a delay!

It was also suggested (not by me) during phone call that our government is 'afraid' of holding this referendum as the voters might not pass it due to feelings re the actual government at this time.

How do the rest of you feel? Do you really think we voters could fail to vote positively to slap an extremely unpopular government on the wrist, or are you insulted by the mere suggestion?
 
Joined
Apr 11, 2010
Messages
33
Excellent. The so-called "childrens rights" referendum is a bad idea.

It is badly written, unneccesary and verbose. And places the rights of the state before those of the family.

It also undermines the presumption of innocence.
 

Toland

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 26, 2008
Messages
64,133
Website
www.aggressive-secularist.com
Childrens rights, like womens rights, clash with the residuum of Catholic Social teaching - including the right of the family - that is embedded in the fabric of the Irish State and Constitution.
I suspect there's a more or less consistent (and very discreet) catholic wing in FF that can twist arms particularly painfully at the moment, as the Dáil majority dwindles.

I don't believe any risk of losing the referendum is a serious factor. On this issue there are few enough who would vote no simply to hurt the government, and the government would be very glad to take the credit for having passed it on the cusp of an election.

I'd say they won't do it because they can't get an adequate wording past the Michael Woods brigade.

And even the most vocal FF supporters of this change (Mammy O'Rourke, for instance) will roll over, because in the end, the party is more important than any policy whatsoever.
 

Toland

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 26, 2008
Messages
64,133
Website
www.aggressive-secularist.com
Excellent. The so-called "childrens rights" referendum is a bad idea.

It is badly written, unneccesary and verbose. And places the rights of the state before those of the family.

It also undermines the presumption of innocence.
Christ Jesus man!

There is no fecking wording defined yet!

FFS
 

d7bohs

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 21, 2009
Messages
1,112
Children put on the back-burner AGAIN
One way of doing it I suppose, but I find on a tray in an oven, or better still, turned slowly on a spit, keeps the juices in.
 

berberie

Active member
Joined
Apr 26, 2009
Messages
162
Excellent. The so-called "childrens rights" referendum is a bad idea.

It is badly written, unneccesary and verbose. And places the rights of the state before those of the family.

It also undermines the presumption of innocence.
Well Celtic that is your opinion, but personally I find it very neccesary in this country to give minors a voice. Plus as a parent I really don't have a problem with handing up a right or two to protect those children that face a childhood of abuse/neglect/death as I do happen to care about the welfare of other children in this state, not just my own child!
 

berberie

Active member
Joined
Apr 26, 2009
Messages
162
I suspect there's a more or less consistent (and very discreet) catholic wing in FF that can twist arms particularly painfully at the moment, as the Dáil majority dwindles.

I don't believe any risk of losing the referendum is a serious factor. On this issue there are few enough who would vote no simply to hurt the government, and the government would be very glad to take the credit for having passed it on the cusp of an election.

I'd say they won't do it because they can't get an adequate wording past the Michael Woods brigade.

And even the most vocal FF supporters of this change (Mammy O'Rourke, for instance) will roll over, because in the end, the party is more important than any policy whatsoever.
Totally agree with you and Cruimh!
 

berberie

Active member
Joined
Apr 26, 2009
Messages
162
Fergus Finlay was on newstalk this morning I think it was and he was laying the blame squarely at the feet of higher civil servants in education, health and finance for the delay.

Listen Back | Newstalk - Ireland's National Independent Talk Radio Broadcaster

Part three I believe. Obviously cowardice and lack of ability amongst the government benches is not helping.
Yup and that's the same reason given by Brian Cowen himself yet the dept of Children are saying it's the Attorney General!
 

Toland

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 26, 2008
Messages
64,133
Website
www.aggressive-secularist.com
Fergus Finlay was on newstalk this morning I think it was and he was laying the blame squarely at the feet of higher civil servants in education, health and finance for the delay.

Listen Back | Newstalk - Ireland's National Independent Talk Radio Broadcaster

Part three I believe. Obviously cowardice and lack of ability amongst the government benches is not helping.
Interestingly, he cites ultimately unsuccessful Dept of Finance arguments against divorce.

The Govt is too weak to crack heads, despite cross-party consensus.

Why?

Their own backbenchers discreetly opposing the measure, is my guess.

And their motivation? The same as the Finance mandarins for opposing divorce, I'd say.
 

Nemi_

Active member
Joined
Aug 20, 2010
Messages
252
Christ Jesus man!

There is no fecking wording defined yet!

FFS
I take it he means the ludicrous 'all party' wording agreed by Mary O'Rourke's committee, which has now been scrapped. You recall it even proposed including the old 'cherish all the children' line so often misused and distorted by people who like to grandstand on this kind of issue.

There isn't actually any significant flaw in the constitution that requires a change. Regulating families is always going to be messy and complex.

But not so messy and complex that malnourished children have to repeatedly turn up in school with untreated lice without any notice being taken.
 

Nemi_

Active member
Joined
Aug 20, 2010
Messages
252
Fergus Finlay was on newstalk this morning I think it was and he was laying the blame squarely at the feet of higher civil servants in education, health and finance for the delay.

Listen Back | Newstalk - Ireland's National Independent Talk Radio Broadcaster

Part three I believe. Obviously cowardice and lack of ability amongst the government benches is not helping.
I think its more the willingness of the politicians to come up with an unimplementable wording running into officials who (thankfully) realise that there's no percentage anymore in quietly facilitating a fiasco.

If you read the Mary O'Rourke wording, the problems are fairly obvious. It doesn't clearly set a limit to what the taxpayer might have to shell out to support any child who, even for a moment, touches Irish soil. The interest of any child, not just permanent residents, are stated to the paramount. Plus, what does 'cherish' mean? The word is not used in any other place in any other legislation. What exactly does 'cherishing' commit the State to do?

But there's your trouble. An unimplementable wording; I'd see it as a product of the effortless bubble economy days. Who gives a feck how much it costs, if it gives you a blast for a second?
 

Old Mr Grouser

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 29, 2009
Messages
6,476
There's an awful lot of cowardice.

You wouldn't need a constitutional amendment to bring in a Children-at-risk Register.

But such a register, with its set procedures and records, would result in important people having to be sacked if their negligence had caused serious suffering to children.

Programme Management : Department for Children, Schools and Families
 

orbit

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 5, 2008
Messages
701
Childrens rights, like womens rights, clash with the residuum of Catholic Social teaching - including the right of the family - that is embedded in the fabric of the Irish State and Constitution.
I'm not religious myself, but I agree with the previous poster who said this referendum is unnecessary and ill-conceived. So, it wouldn't be right to assume that everyone who's sceptical about it is under the thumb of the church.
 

berberie

Active member
Joined
Apr 26, 2009
Messages
162
I take it he means the ludicrous 'all party' wording agreed by Mary O'Rourke's committee, which has now been scrapped. You recall it even proposed including the old 'cherish all the children' line so often misused and distorted by people who like to grandstand on this kind of issue.

There isn't actually any significant flaw in the constitution that requires a change. Regulating families is always going to be messy and complex.

But not so messy and complex that malnourished children have to repeatedly turn up in school with untreated lice without any notice being taken.
On the contrary Nemi, most of the Joint Committee's wording will be used, what they are saying is that they are ironing out what the various depts view as problems which could have occured within their areas if the wording was placed in the constitution as it stood. I was told that they (not the committee, rather the dept of children) debated for two days alone on one word and implications of that word if passed by the people.

This is not just about 'regulating families' it is attempting to give a child a voice within the judicial system, as it stands at the moment they don't have one unless 'an adult' speaks out on their behalf!

Personally I think it should also include the idea of splitting the judicial system up to include specially trained judges to preside over cases of abuse/neglect within the family/area of care. For the cases we see hitting the headlines these days, the Judges don't appear to have a clue on sentencing.
 

Black Cat

Active member
Joined
Mar 29, 2010
Messages
247
On the topic of children someone said there was an article in the daily mail this week that the free pre-school ECCE scheme may be scrapped - anybody know anything about this.
Ireland was due to reply to the recommendation of the UN committee's on childrens rights in Ireland in april 2009 if I remember right, and they still haven't come up with anything. Things are only likely to get worse for children in Ireland - they are cutting funding for barnardos which helps children in extreme need and poverty which shows their commitment to children's rights.
 

Cruimh

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 30, 2010
Messages
85,676
I'm not religious myself, but I agree with the previous poster who said this referendum is unnecessary and ill-conceived. So, it wouldn't be right to assume that everyone who's sceptical about it is under the thumb of the church.
I should have quoted - I was responding to

the rights of the state before those of the family.
with

Childrens rights, like womens rights, clash with the residuum of Catholic Social teaching - including the right of the family - that is embedded in the fabric of the Irish State and Constitution.
 

New Threads

Popular Threads

Most Replies

Top