• Before posting anything about COVID-19, READ THIS FIRST! COVID-19 and Misinformation (UPDATED)
    Misinformation and/or conspiracy theories about this topic, even if intended as humor, will not be tolerated!

Patslatt1

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This report from India presents Wuhan statistics on airline traffic levels How China locked down internally for COVID-19, but pushed foreign travel Airline travel stats plunged in Wuhan in February with the internal flight ban within China but the international flight ban only commenced in the last week of March, unfortunately allowing time for the pandemic to spread globally.
This is going to be a global public relations and foreign relations disaster for China. The obvious contrast between the ruthless internal ban on Wuhan's air travel and continuing international flights will feed conspiracy theories about waging biological warfare on the world and the more charitable belief that President Xi and his leadership made an incomprehensibly stupid decision to allow those flights. On the latter point, a leading Chinese businessman publicly denounced President Xi for stupidity and promptly disappeared,likely to prison.
Assuming the newspaper article is correct, President Trump has plenty of evidence for China bashing in the coming presidential election campaign. He is starting by raisng the possibility of compensation. Secretary of state Pompeo was denounced by the Chinese government for accusations about the potential origin of the Covid-19 virus in a Wuhan lab.
 

sheehan

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French hospital discovers country's first known Covid-19 case, from December

A French hospital which has retested old samples from pneumonia patients discovered that it treated a man who had Covid-19 as early as Dec. 27, nearly a month before the French government confirmed its first cases.

Yves Cohen, head of resuscitation at the Avicenne and Jean Verdier hospitals in the northern suburbs of Paris, told French media that scientists had retested samples from 24 patients treated in December and January who tested negative for the flu.

The samples had all initially been collected to detect flu using PCR tests, the same genetic screening process that can also be used to detect the presence of the novel coronavirus in patients infected at the time the sample is collected.

Each sample was retested several times to ensure there were no errors, he added. Neither Cohen nor his team were immediately available for comment on Monday.

 

Dame_Enda

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French hospital discovers country's first known Covid-19 case, from December

A French hospital which has retested old samples from pneumonia patients discovered that it treated a man who had Covid-19 as early as Dec. 27, nearly a month before the French government confirmed its first cases.

Yves Cohen, head of resuscitation at the Avicenne and Jean Verdier hospitals in the northern suburbs of Paris, told French media that scientists had retested samples from 24 patients treated in December and January who tested negative for the flu.

The samples had all initially been collected to detect flu using PCR tests, the same genetic screening process that can also be used to detect the presence of the novel coronavirus in patients infected at the time the sample is collected.

Each sample was retested several times to ensure there were no errors, he added. Neither Cohen nor his team were immediately available for comment on Monday.

Yes but the first reports inside China of Covid 19 started on December too. Dr Li Wenliang warned about it and the police gave him a warning. He died in hospital with the disease.

 

Lumpy Talbot

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There is something irksome about the use of this public health crisis as an excuse to continue the high whine of worry about China from the right wing. I suppose it helps distract from the utter hames in the White House whose outbursts and solutions he's dreamed up while waiting for his morning piss are quite properly ignored by anyone with any medical knowledge or experience.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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Far as I am aware it wasn't the Chinese who were basically hijacking PPE in transit for other nations and basically creating an instant black market worldwide.
 

Hillmanhunter1

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There is something irksome about the use of this public health crisis as an excuse to continue the high whine of worry about China from the right wing. I suppose it helps distract from the utter hames in the White House whose outbursts and solutions he's dreamed up while waiting for his morning piss are quite properly ignored by anyone with any medical knowledge or experience.

The appalling mess in London and Washington in relation to dealing with Covid-19 does not lessen the need to establish what happened in China, when did it happen, how did it happen, and what was and is the scale of the problem?

The Chinese Communist Party has told nothing but lies from the outset and continues to do so.

There will need to be a reckoning for this.
 

Patslatt1

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Far as I am aware it wasn't the Chinese who were basically hijacking PPE in transit for other nations and basically creating an instant black market worldwide.
France blocked a shipment of PPE in transit to the UK. Nice neighbours. I expect private sector oriented health care systems were quick to pay premium prices to get priority on scarce supplies.
 

Patslatt1

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There is something irksome about the use of this public health crisis as an excuse to continue the high whine of worry about China from the right wing. I suppose it helps distract from the utter hames in the White House whose outbursts and solutions he's dreamed up while waiting for his morning piss are quite properly ignored by anyone with any medical knowledge or experience.
So China should not be criticised for its atrocious mistake and China should not apologise or admit it was a mistake.
 

Patslatt1

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The appalling mess in London and Washington in relation to dealing with Covid-19 does not lessen the need to establish what happened in China, when did it happen, how did it happen, and what was and is the scale of the problem?

The Chinese Communist Party has told nothing but lies from the outset and continues to do so.

There will need to be a reckoning for this.
There never is a reckoning for totalitarian states unless their leaders are overthrown.Institutionalised brass neck lying and mass propaganda have been important features of those governments.
 

rainmaker

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This report from India presents Wuhan statistics on airline traffic levels How China locked down internally for COVID-19, but pushed foreign travel Airline travel stats plunged in Wuhan in February with the internal flight ban within China but the international flight ban only commenced in the last week of March, unfortunately allowing time for the pandemic to spread globally.
This is going to be a global public relations and foreign relations disaster for China. The obvious contrast between the ruthless internal ban on Wuhan's air travel and continuing international flights will feed conspiracy theories about waging biological warfare on the world and the more charitable belief that President Xi and his leadership made an incomprehensibly stupid decision to allow those flights. On the latter point, a leading Chinese businessman publicly denounced President Xi for stupidity and promptly disappeared,likely to prison.
Assuming the newspaper article is correct, President Trump has plenty of evidence for China bashing in the coming presidential election campaign. He is starting by raisng the possibility of compensation. Secretary of state Pompeo was denounced by the Chinese government for accusations about the potential origin of the Covid-19 virus in a Wuhan lab.
In short no. Trade with China is worth hundreds of billions, perhaps even trillions a year - her economy is a major factor in the global economy now.

No one is seriously turning their back on that.
 

petaljam

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France blocked a shipment of PPE in transit to the UK. Nice neighbours. I expect private sector oriented health care systems were quick to pay premium prices to get priority on scarce supplies.
Link to this? I know France requisitioned PPE that was made in France, which IMO is fair enough, but I'm not aware of them having blocked stuff that was merely in transit. That would be completely wrong of them.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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The appalling mess in London and Washington in relation to dealing with Covid-19 does not lessen the need to establish what happened in China, when did it happen, how did it happen, and what was and is the scale of the problem?

The Chinese Communist Party has told nothing but lies from the outset and continues to do so.

There will need to be a reckoning for this.

Sure. Let us know how you get on.
 

APettigrew92

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I expect private sector oriented health care systems were quick to pay premium prices to get priority on scarce supplies.
From what I've read on forums such as Quora and in the Guardian, the Private care homes were woefully under-prepared for a Pandemic. Which is, despite the shady origins of this one, criminal negligence.

My mother has worked in a care home which is, thankfully, under the supervision of the Sisters of Charity and the HSE. They have experienced two Pandemic scares with SARS and Swine Flu. The criminal negligence by private institutions, many of whom being highlighted in numerous undercover documentaries with regard to their deplorable conditions, of not preparing for a highly contagious viral outbreak is scandalous.

The fact that there were British Private homes requesting further payment from family for PPE - PPE apparently being a supplementary expense - after the outbreak began ravaging care homes is tell-tale enough of the priority system under neo-liberalism. Not to mention the exodus of their cheap, overworked labour who were deemed "non essential" by Patel only a few months ago.

Without sounding like a disaffected left-leaning philosophy student, the results of putting profit before people has been made very clear to all. It's a disgrace.

To respond to your initial assertion, no. The private homes entered into bidding wars with the big bad State wolf. How a private care home which specialized in gouging the most vulnerable of their inheritances and funnelling the profits into bonuses and not at all into emergency stocks of PPE is supposed to enter a bidding war against the State is beyond me.

You're a supplier of PPE. You have 10,000 masks. The private sector can afford them but the HSE has a bottomless sack of money. You sell to the HSE. You even sell at a higher margin. The State can pay. The private care homes, which are apparently bereft of liquidity for some bizarre reason (see bonuses, shareholder payouts - everything symptomatic of other "big" companies that immediately needed bailouts), cannot compete.
 

Ardillaun

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The task of changing China’s policies is made far more difficult by Trump, given that he has deliberately sown bitterness and resentment among many of America’s allies. With him as leader, any international coalition will be fractious and less effective than it could have been.
 

Sam Lord

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The appalling mess in London and Washington in relation to dealing with Covid-19 does not lessen the need to establish what happened in China, when did it happen, how did it happen, and what was and is the scale of the problem?

The time line is quite well established.

Fair play to the Chinese doctors for picking up that something unusual was going on. I can imagine in many places it would have been lost amidst the usual winter pneumonia cases amongst the elderly.

Not having the virus spread within China was the responsibility of the Chinese government. Not having it spread to their country was the responsibility governments outside of China. That should be considered when addressing the question of international flights.

Bty, earliest identified case in China now goes back to November.
 
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The Chinese government tried to cover up the spread of the virus at first and arrested people who were trying to inform the world. Not only that but they lashed out at the suggestion that flights from China should be stopped before banning flights from outside China and then systematically discriminating against foreigners. Theyve certainly been withholding the full death toll too.

It certainly should be punished for its role in spreading the virus, but many people, even now, would still prefer to have a go at Trump. Fortunately, the crisis has forced governments to reconsider their supply chains of important equipment.
 

Splodge

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The Chinese government tried to cover up the spread of the virus at first and arrested people who were trying to inform the world. Not only that but they lashed out at the suggestion that flights from China should be stopped before banning flights from outside China and then systematically discriminating against foreigners. Theyve certainly been withholding the full death toll too.

It certainly should be punished for its role in spreading the virus, but many people, even now, would still prefer to have a go at Trump. Fortunately, the crisis has forced governments to reconsider their supply chains of important equipment.
Your hero called it a hoax.
 

Sam Lord

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The Chinese government tried to cover up the spread of the virus at first and arrested people who were trying to inform the world.

I didn't follow it that closely I must admit but I really don't understand where the delay or cover up came in. Perhaps you could inform me of where I have it wrong:

To my knowledge a doctor in Wuhan notified the authorities on Dec 27 of the possibilities of a new contagious disease.

The CDC in the US seems to have been aware of this from Dec 31. I think as the result of a statement from the Wuhan Health authorities confirming 27 viral pneumonia cases.

By Jan 3. the WHO was being briefed regularly. I also believe that the heads of the Chinese and US CDC's were in contact,

On Jan 5 the WHO informed all countries about the outbreak.

On Jan 7 the Coronavirus was isolated.

This all seems quite speedy to me. The only real issue might be if human to human transmission was not confirmed in a timely manner but I think medical authorities everywhere would have had a good idea of how coronaviruses generally worked.

With regard to people being arrested I'm not sure that this accurate. I know that a doctor (who subsequently died of the virus) posted an online warning to medical contacts on Dec. 31 and was censured for spreading rumours instead of going through the channels. But I don't believe he was arrested. Who were the people you think were arrested?

Not only that but they lashed out at the suggestion that flights from China should be stopped before banning flights from outside China and then systematically discriminating against foreigners.

Halting flights to China would have been the responsibility of other countries and the airlines. One can see why China would not have been crazy about this. When did the Italian authorities halt flights into Italy?

Theyve certainly been withholding the full death toll too.

Any evidence to support this?
 

Patslatt1

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From what I've read on forums such as Quora and in the Guardian, the Private care homes were woefully under-prepared for a Pandemic. Which is, despite the shady origins of this one, criminal negligence.

My mother has worked in a care home which is, thankfully, under the supervision of the Sisters of Charity and the HSE. They have experienced two Pandemic scares with SARS and Swine Flu. The criminal negligence by private institutions, many of whom being highlighted in numerous undercover documentaries with regard to their deplorable conditions, of not preparing for a highly contagious viral outbreak is scandalous.

The fact that there were British Private homes requesting further payment from family for PPE - PPE apparently being a supplementary expense - after the outbreak began ravaging care homes is tell-tale enough of the priority system under neo-liberalism. Not to mention the exodus of their cheap, overworked labour who were deemed "non essential" by Patel only a few months ago.

Without sounding like a disaffected left-leaning philosophy student, the results of putting profit before people has been made very clear to all. It's a disgrace.

To respond to your initial assertion, no. The private homes entered into bidding wars with the big bad State wolf. How a private care home which specialized in gouging the most vulnerable of their inheritances and funnelling the profits into bonuses and not at all into emergency stocks of PPE is supposed to enter a bidding war against the State is beyond me.

You're a supplier of PPE. You have 10,000 masks. The private sector can afford them but the HSE has a bottomless sack of money. You sell to the HSE. You even sell at a higher margin. The State can pay. The private care homes, which are apparently bereft of liquidity for some bizarre reason (see bonuses, shareholder payouts - everything symptomatic of other "big" companies that immediately needed bailouts), cannot compete.
Private care homes are just a subset of the private sector oriented health care systems. Private hospitals and charity foundation hospitals have the money as well as the flexibility to move faster than bureaucratic, slow state systems in securing PPE supplies.
England's NHS, a socialist system that is the biggest employer in Europe, is experiencing horrendous Covid death rates, a multiple of Germany's in which private sector hospitals supply services in a well regulated system.
Of course,It may simply be that England's NHS carried frugality too far in the past by strictly limiting bed numbers to control costs and was caught totally unprepared for the surge in Covid patients needing beds. That suggests that Covid patient admissions were limited to the worst cases with the highest mortality risks.
 

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