China's international relations could be poisoned for failure to ban international Wuhan flights in time to stop spread of pandemic

Fumikun

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This report from India presents Wuhan statistics on airline traffic levels How China locked down internally for COVID-19, but pushed foreign travel Airline travel stats plunged in Wuhan in February with the internal flight ban within China but the international flight ban only commenced in the last week of March, unfortunately allowing time for the pandemic to spread globally.
This is going to be a global public relations and foreign relations disaster for China. The obvious contrast between the ruthless internal ban on Wuhan's air travel and continuing international flights will feed conspiracy theories about waging biological warfare on the world and the more charitable belief that President Xi and his leadership made an incomprehensibly stupid decision to allow those flights. On the latter point, a leading Chinese businessman publicly denounced President Xi for stupidity and promptly disappeared,likely to prison.
Assuming the newspaper article is correct, President Trump has plenty of evidence for China bashing in the coming presidential election campaign. He is starting by raisng the possibility of compensation. Secretary of state Pompeo was denounced by the Chinese government for accusations about the potential origin of the Covid-19 virus in a Wuhan lab.
The conclusion based on flight statistics is misleading, as there were repatriation flights by governments around the world to evacuate their citizens from Wuhan after the airport was closed on 23 January. This continued until the end of March. Source: Evacuations related to the COVID-19 pandemic - Wikipedia
 


tsarbomb

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I didn't follow it that closely I must admit but I really don't understand where the delay or cover up came in. Perhaps you could inform me of where I have it wrong:

To my knowledge a doctor in Wuhan notified the authorities on Dec 27 of the possibilities of a new contagious disease.

The CDC in the US seems to have been aware of this from Dec 31. I think as the result of a statement from the Wuhan Health authorities confirming 27 viral pneumonia cases.

By Jan 3. the WHO was being briefed regularly. I also believe that the heads of the Chinese and US CDC's were in contact,

On Jan 5 the WHO informed all countries about the outbreak.

On Jan 7 the Coronavirus was isolated.

This all seems quite speedy to me. The only real issue might be if human to human transmission was not confirmed in a timely manner but I think medical authorities everywhere would have had a good idea of how coronaviruses generally worked.

With regard to people being arrested I'm not sure that this accurate. I know that a doctor (who subsequently died of the virus) posted an online warning to medical contacts on Dec. 31 and was censured for spreading rumours instead of going through the channels. But I don't believe he was arrested. Who were the people you think were arrested?



Halting flights to China would have been the responsibility of other countries and the airlines. One can see why China would not have been crazy about this. When did the Italian authorities halt flights into Italy?



Any evidence to support this?
Doctor Li and a few other doctors were trying to inform people of person to person transmission, but were arrested and censured for doing so. The first obvious signs that the virus was contagious were in early December last year when people not connected with the Wuhan fish market were this supposedly all originated from became sick. Despite all of this the Chinese government were still asserting as late as January 12th that there was no person to person transmission. The WHO chose to believe the CCP rather than the Taiwanese government, who warned them about this back in December.

Not only did they have a duty to inform the world a lot sooner, but they also had a duty to try and stop infected people travelling all around the world. They complained about travel restrictions on flights from China, but had no problem in then having a blanket ban on foreign passport holders entering the country.

Given what we know about the death tolls in other countries there can be no doubt that the death toll in China is significantly higher than what they're telling us. Remember that the CCP has a long history of covering up atrocities.

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McTell

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I'm not a fan of CCP China but the flights from wuhan to (e.g.) england were the result of delays and riling the politicians and media, and they ended up in quarantine near liverpool.

It must have been in england since christmas-new year.
 

Patslatt1

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The conclusion based on flight statistics is misleading, as there were repatriation flights by governments around the world to evacuate their citizens from Wuhan after the airport was closed on 23 January. This continued until the end of March. Source: Evacuations related to the COVID-19 pandemic - Wikipedia
But there were other flights apart from repatriations. Flights from Wuhan ceased in late March after Trump spoke with Xi.
 

Sam Lord

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Doctor Li and a few other doctors were trying to inform people of person to person transmission, but were arrested and censured for doing so.
Like I said, I'm not sure that anyone was arrested. And the censure of Li (and others if there were) could be more to do with zealous local public security officials rather than any decision of the central government to cover something up.

I think two weeks from a doctor reporting odd cases of pneumonia and the identification of a novel coronavirus is pretty quick. Hard to imagine it would have been any quicker anywhere else.

The first obvious signs that the virus was contagious were in early December last year when people not connected with the Wuhan fish market were this supposedly all originated from became sick.
Your timeline is incorrect. There was no knowledge of a new coronavirus in early December. Subsequently, cases have been identified going back to November. But at the time no one had a clue that these were coronavirus cases. In France they have now identified cases going back to mid December. But no doctor treating these patients at the time recognised anything new.


Despite all of this the Chinese government were still asserting as late as January 12th that there was no person to person transmission. The WHO chose to believe the CCP rather than the Taiwanese government, who warned them about this back in December.
The Chinese government never asserted, to my knowledge, there was no person to person transmission. At worst it may have been said by Health Authorities that the risk was low or that they could not confirm it. It was confirmed on Jan 20 I believe. It is possible that the government was sure of person to person transmission earlier but did not want to cause immediate panic. I don't know. But any delay would have been marginal. The whole world was informed about the novel coronavirus by early January and to rule out probable human to human transmission would have been stupid.

I am not a fan of the Chinese government as another poster as also said but one should be fair about things. I think the response to the novel coronavirus was pretty good in China tbh. They learned alot from SARS experience.

I'm not sure, btw, how the Taiwanese government knew about covid19 in December.

Given what we know about the death tolls in other countries there can be no doubt that the death toll in China is significantly higher than what they're telling us. Remember that the CCP has a long history of covering up atrocities.
The death toll may be higher. It doesn't seem to be right in just about any country. But neither you nor I know that for a fact. And I think it would be a difficult thing to cover up if there was a substantial difference. Not everyone in China is enamoured of their government and people would be spilling the beans. China is not locked away from the world. Anyone there can buy a VPN and post or message stuff anywhere in the world.

Btw, had toast for breakfast every day this week but that does not necessarily mean that I will have toast tomorrow. I may fry an egg.

With regard to flights ... should we blame the Italian government for the fact that we have Covid19 in Ireland. It was them, after all, who allowed flights out of Italy.
 

tsarbomb

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Like I said, I'm not sure that anyone was arrested. And the censure of Li (and others if there were) could be more to do with zealous local public security officials rather than any decision of the central government to cover something up.

I think two weeks from a doctor reporting odd cases of pneumonia and the identification of a novel coronavirus is pretty quick. Hard to imagine it would have been any quicker anywhere else.



Your timeline is incorrect. There was no knowledge of a new coronavirus in early December. Subsequently, cases have been identified going back to November. But at the time no one had a clue that these were coronavirus cases. In France they have now identified cases going back to mid December. But no doctor treating these patients at the time recognised anything new.




The Chinese government never asserted, to my knowledge, there was no person to person transmission. At worst it may have been said by Health Authorities that the risk was low or that they could not confirm it. It was confirmed on Jan 20 I believe. It is possible that the government was sure of person to person transmission earlier but did not want to cause immediate panic. I don't know. But any delay would have been marginal. The whole world was informed about the novel coronavirus by early January and to rule out probable human to human transmission would have been stupid.

I am not a fan of the Chinese government as another poster as also said but one should be fair about things. I think the response to the novel coronavirus was pretty good in China tbh. They learned alot from SARS experience.

I'm not sure, btw, how the Taiwanese government knew about covid19 in December.



The death toll may be higher. It doesn't seem to be right in just about any country. But neither you nor I know that for a fact. And I think it would be a difficult thing to cover up if there was a substantial difference. Not everyone in China is enamoured of their government and people would be spilling the beans. China is not locked away from the world. Anyone there can buy a VPN and post or message stuff anywhere in the world.

Btw, had toast for breakfast every day this week but that does not necessarily mean that I will have toast tomorrow. I may fry an egg.

With regard to flights ... should we blame the Italian government for the fact that we have Covid19 in Ireland. It was them, after all, who allowed flights out of Italy.
Read the articles I linked in the earlier post. Most of the points I made are backed up by them.

On the Chinese government covering up the death toll, it's fair to say they probably have done so. The virus was spreading around Wuhan for at least six weeks before any public health initiatives were launched. Given what we know about the death tolls in other countries youd think the death toll in Wuhan would be far higher. That and their history of covering up atrocities puts the idea on solid ground.

They had a responsibility to halt travel of potentially infected citizens, but that's not to say they're the only people who are guilty of helping spread this virus. The WHO advised against countries shutting their borders and our own government even now wont effectively quarantine people entering the state. I'm not blaming the Chinese government exclusively
 

Fumikun

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But there were other flights apart from repatriations. Flights from Wuhan ceased in late March after Trump spoke with Xi.
There was no source reference cited in the original article for the Trump-Xi conversation that supposedly led to China reducing international flights from Wuhan. However, I think it is referring to news similar to the one here: Coronavirus update: Xi Jinping , Donald Trump talk as China slams shut its borders to foreign arrivals

The telephone call between Trump and Xi was more about improving cooperation in the battle against the pandemic. Trump did not ask to reduce international flights from Wuhan. Rather, it was China's own decision made on the day before the call to reduce international flights not from China, but "to" China, as it struggled with a second wave of infections imported by travellers from overseas.
 

Fumikun

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Read the articles I linked in the earlier post. Most of the points I made are backed up by them.

On the Chinese government covering up the death toll, it's fair to say they probably have done so. The virus was spreading around Wuhan for at least six weeks before any public health initiatives were launched. Given what we know about the death tolls in other countries youd think the death toll in Wuhan would be far higher. That and their history of covering up atrocities puts the idea on solid ground.
The relatively low death toll in China is actually quite consistent with those of other East Asian countries such as Japan, South Korea and Singapore, which had battled against the SARS outbreak in 2003. Source: The East-West Divide in COVID-19 Control | by Jeffrey D. Sachs - Project Syndicate

The virus itself is also mutating and certain strains are more contagious (not necessarily more deadly, but still result in more deaths as a larger proportion of population is infected). Other factors such as differences in health system capacity, testing capacity, or speed of response, may all lead to disparity in death tolls among countries.
 

Sam Lord

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Read the articles I linked in the earlier post. Most of the points I made are backed up by them.
If these articles is where you got your timeline from then they are also incorrect.
 

sheehan

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Doctor Li and a few other doctors were trying to inform people of person to person transmission, but were arrested and censured for doing so. The first obvious signs that the virus was contagious were in early December last year when people not connected with the Wuhan fish market were this supposedly all originated from became sick. Despite all of this the Chinese government were still asserting as late as January 12th that there was no person to person transmission. The WHO chose to believe the CCP rather than the Taiwanese government, who warned them about this back in December.

Not only did they have a duty to inform the world a lot sooner, but they also had a duty to try and stop infected people travelling all around the world. They complained about travel restrictions on flights from China, but had no problem in then having a blanket ban on foreign passport holders entering the country.

Given what we know about the death tolls in other countries there can be no doubt that the death toll in China is significantly higher than what they're telling us. Remember that the CCP has a long history of covering up atrocities.

Subscribe to read | Financial Times



Who is 'patient zero' in the coronavirus outbreak?



From fish market to global pandemic: Key dates in the coronavirus outbreak



Chinese inquiry exonerates coronavirus whistleblower doctor
Big fat bullshiiit lie repeated so many times!

Nobody was arrested. Dr Li was not an expert of contagious diseases even, he was an EYE doctor, he received the information from internal local medical system briefing about the possible unknown virus on 30th Dec. 2019. He warned his friends online about the unknown virus and mistakenly called it SARS.

He was orally warned by the local police later because his online (SARS) warning was leaked by somebody in that circle against his will (he said explicitly in that circle not to tell anybody else)and caused social unrest. He stayed in the police station for a couple of hours going through the procedures and returned to his work on the same day, where he later got infected.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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The Chinese don't give a sh*t about how the rest of the world views them. Most other UN security council members have states that would be dismayed by their stock in the world dropping. The UK is showing signs of such distress.

The Chinese to my knowledge and reading of history have always regarded westerners as barbarians and probably always will. In fairness we did give them very good reason not long after the first contemporary era contact began to open.
 

Patslatt1

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The Chinese don't give a sh*t about how the rest of the world views them. Most other UN security council members have states that would be dismayed by their stock in the world dropping. The UK is showing signs of such distress.

The Chinese to my knowledge and reading of history have always regarded westerners as barbarians and probably always will. In fairness we did give them very good reason not long after the first contemporary era contact began to open.
Most countries attacked their neighbours throughout history. The Chines government nurtures a sense of grievance against the west because totalitarian governments need to stir up anger at foreign devils to distract their peoples from domestic problems.
 


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