Christian Bakery facing legal action over refusing to make homosexual propaganda cake

Clanrickard

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So Google/Apple/Facebook/Twitter - all "private" companies" - refuse to host a given personality on their platform as they disagree with their political beliefs or fabricate some stuff about incitement to hatred or whatever. This is defended vociferously by those on the political Left as the actions of "private enterprise."

A private enterprise - a bakery - refuses to serve a client. This is apparently discrimination despite the bakery not being some sort of apparatus of the State.

Either private enterprise is private or it ain't. If we are to accept that private enterprises absolutely must provide services against their will, then the same principle would have to be adapted to other cases across the board. Otherwise, that would inversely be discriminating against others.

Talk about having one's cake and eating it too.
This post should be a sticky on this thread. Well put.
 


Clanrickard

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Emily Davison

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You're not shy about calling people evil yourself Emily.

No doubt that's different though.
That link is not working.

You think it odd for me to label Alan Hawe who hacked his wife and sons to death evil. And you're equating that to Clan calling Mr. Lee evil for taking a court case about discrimination.
 

Clanrickard

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That link is not working.

You think it odd for me to label Alan Hawe who hacked his wife and sons to death evil. And you're equating that to Clan calling Mr. Lee evil for taking a court case about discrimination.
You called bankers evil and the Catholic church.
 

Emily Davison

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You called bankers evil and the Catholic church.
The Caholic church is responsible for the horrendous abuse of childen and that's not evil? Covering it up isn't evil? What happened in Tuam isn't evil?

What exactly is evil about Mr. Lee, you've not responded to that ?
 

Baron von Biffo

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That link is not working.
Perhaps it only works for the person who does the initial search.

Click the search icon and look for posts containing 'Evil' made by yourself. I get 15 pages of results.

You think it odd for me to label Alan Hawe who hacked his wife and sons to death evil. And you're equating that to Clan calling Mr. Lee evil for taking a court case about discrimination.
You asked a very specific question - "Why do you refer to another human being as evil?". The search result shows that you must know the answer as you're particularly fond of calling other humans evil yourself.
 

Buchaill Dana

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So Google/Apple/Facebook/Twitter - all "private" companies" - refuse to host a given personality on their platform as they disagree with their political beliefs or fabricate some stuff about incitement to hatred or whatever. This is defended vociferously by those on the political Left as the actions of "private enterprise."

A private enterprise - a bakery - refuses to serve a client. This is apparently discrimination despite the bakery not being some sort of apparatus of the State.

Either private enterprise is private or it ain't. If we are to accept that private enterprises absolutely must provide services against their will, then the same principle would have to be adapted to other cases across the board. Otherwise, that would inversely be discriminating against others.

Talk about having one's cake and eating it too.
But its not the same thing.

The social media platforms allow anyone to open an account. If you put content on that account that breaches t&c's I defend their right to take action. If Lee behaved as a customer in a way that made them chose not to do more business with him, same rules. Being gay is not a valid reason.

Actually you are the hypocrite. The far right are entitled to consequence free speech, the gays not even a cake. The bakery held to be agreeung with the message, Google not allowed any standards.
 

Clanrickard

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But its not the same thing.

The social media platforms allow anyone to open an account. If you put content on that account that breaches t&c's I defend their right to take action. If Lee behaved as a customer in a way that made them chose not to do more business with him, same rules. Being gay is not a valid reason.

Actually you are the hypocrite. The far right are entitled to consequence free speech, the gays not even a cake. The bakery held to be agreeung with the message, Google not allowed any standards.

Please please tell you are not this thick. It had nothing to do with his being gay. Stop being so dishonest and repeating this. It was clearly mentioned in the initial case that he had purchased items from the bakery before without any problems. Ashers have gay customers and gay employees. If a amember of the Orange Order entered a emeber of Sinn Fein's bakery shop and demanded a cake with glorifying the 12th he might well be refused. You cannot force people to do something against their beliefs. Now stop being a bullshi**er for once.
 

Buchaill Dana

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Please please tell you are not this thick. It had nothing to do with his being gay. Stop being so dishonest and repeating this. It was clearly mentioned in the initial case that he had purchased items from the bakery before without any problems. Ashers have gay customers and gay employees. If a amember of the Orange Order entered a emeber of Sinn Fein's bakery shop and demanded a cake with glorifying the 12th he might well be refused. You cannot force people to do something against their beliefs. Now stop being a bullshi**er for once.
Sigh. Gay staff? Link please.

Your scenario is explicitly against the law.

Read about protected groups and join the grownup conversation.
 

Clanrickard

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Sigh. Gay staff? Link please.

Your scenario is explicitly against the law.

Read about protected groups and join the grownup conversation.
FFS! It isn't. That is why the Supreme Court ruled in favour of Ashers. Chrsit you are dense.
 

artfoley56

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Originally I supported the Ashers. I thought they shouldn't be forced to bake a cake with a message they fundamentally disagreed with. Because I support their right to have whatever religious views they like. But I changed my mind when I thought about the fact that if a business can refuse a client than you could have a situation where Mr. Lee would never be able to get a cake with a message on it anywhere.
thats taking it to extremes to be perfectly honest.

Mr Lee IIRC, had previously used ashers for cakes before so in my mind the issue doesnt arise.

to flip matters around, if a christian fundamentalist group wanted a gay bakery to print a cake saying no to gay marriage do you think that it would be ok for the bakery to refuse the order?
 

Emily Davison

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thats taking it to extremes to be perfectly honest.

Mr Lee IIRC, had previously used ashers for cakes before so in my mind the issue doesnt arise.

to flip matters around, if a christian fundamentalist group wanted a gay bakery to print a cake saying no to gay marriage do you think that it would be ok for the bakery to refuse the order?
The reason my thinking went to extremes on this was due to this website. When I saw then that 'religion' could be used in a round about way to discriminate without it being overt. So the way I saw it then was that if you allowed a public business to deny something due to their own religious beliefs how far would they push it.

Attitudes on here like why didn't Lee to to another flippin bakery ffs. That kind of view. And I saw merit in that. Initially. Like what the hell go down the road. But then I thought of NI (and the way Ireland used to be) and that if you were in some remote place then there might not be another baker (or whatever) and that wouldn't be right.

Also on here I was influened by the views of the homophobes, in full glee at Lee's treatment. And I said ai oh, this is not the road we need to be travelling. Where will it lead. Kind of like the:

They came for you and I did nothing.
Then they came for me



Another thing was I thought, why on earth are we talking about a bakery in reference to it being a Christain bakery, do we need to think before we go into Abdul's shop will they serve me pork because they are Muslim. Is that the way we want society to go. We've seen crazy stuff in the UK where staff won't serve meat that is not halal. Like I don't like horsemeat or pig's legs but does that give me the right as an employee to refuse to touch them in packages. ( I worked fado fado in a supermarket).

As regards the Ashers, I've zero issue with them being religious. But that is surely their private business. And should have nothing to do with them doing business with the public. The argument as regards why shouldn't a priest marry two gay people is entirely different. I've no issue with Church's organising themselves whatever way they see fit.

( Of course a bakery shouldn't be forced to print something evil, nazism/hate speech etc. and those are covered )

That's an interesting flip. I'll mull on that and come back to you.
 
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artfoley56

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The reason my thinking went to extremes on this was due to this website. When I saw then that 'religion' could be used in a round about way to discriminate without it being overt. So the way I saw it then was that if you allowed a public business to deny something due to their own religious beliefs how far would they push it.


Attitudes on here like why didn't Lee to to another flippin bakery ffs. That kind of view. And I saw merit in that. Initially. But then I thought of NI (and the way Ireland used to be) and that if you were in some remote place then there might not be another baker (or whatever) and that wouldn't be right.

( Of course a bakery shouldn't be forced to print something evil, nazism/hate speech etc. and those are covered )

That's an interesting flip.
i suppose another layer to add to the whole argument is that gay marriage isnt legal in northern ireland so you cant then ask further questions about what may appear to be discriminatory but supporting an illegal cause.

there's plenty of bakers available for lee and there would have to be a big bang moment for ireland to return to what it was even 20 years ago. i dont think this case does anything to support equality and Mr Lee wouldve been better getting the equality commission to take on the the NI and westminister govts for discrimination for not allowing gay marriage. thats a cause we couldve all gotten behind rather than this unseemly and frankly ridiculous carryon
 

Emily Davison

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Art I modified my post as I was thinking about it.
 

Emily Davison

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i suppose another layer to add to the whole argument is that gay marriage isnt legal in northern ireland so you cant then ask further questions about what may appear to be discriminatory but supporting an illegal cause.

there's plenty of bakers available for lee and there would have to be a big bang moment for ireland to return to what it was even 20 years ago. i dont think this case does anything to support equality and Mr Lee wouldve been better getting the equality commission to take on the the NI and westminister govts for discrimination for not allowing gay marriage. thats a cause we couldve all gotten behind rather than this unseemly and frankly ridiculous carryon
Is it strickly illegal. Isn't it more the case that it's not legal but has never been thought about until modern times. Certainly I never heard of gay marriage until about the last 10 years or so. I never even countenced it. Never thought about it actually.

Taking Mr. Lee as an ordinary human being. His cake was really soft. Like it wasn't a mega deal. Nothing rude or horrendous on it. He'd been purchasing stuff in that shop many times. Maybe he didn't know they would refuse to bake the cake for him. And if he thought that, wouldn't he be pretty shocked (he would be used to discrimination and know that society can be homophobic).

Take a different example. I decide to get a cake to celebrate the fact two gay men of my acquaintance are engaged. And I happen upon Ashers and ask them to bake a cake that says, Congrats Adam and Steve on your engagement. I think I'd be pretty put out if they refused my order due to their religion. My mother used to play golf, and I remember my amazement once when I met her at a certain golf club and they said to us that we couldn't go into the bar because we were women. It really upset me. And it was perfectly legal. But it doesn't make it right. These kind of things hurt people.
 

Emily Davison

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there's plenty of bakers available for lee and there would have to be a big bang moment for ireland to return to what it was even 20 years ago.
Did you agree with the civil servant in America who refused to give a gay couple a marriage licence because of her religion ?
 


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