Civil Disobedience - Is it an option?

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MPB

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A mortgage strike, if it was organised properly and backed by an established grouping, would be a far better method of protest than a tax strike, which because of the PAYE system could not involve all taxpayers.

A mortgage strike would also target the Banks, which are the source of all the anger and frustration in the first place.
 

ivnryn

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A mortgage strike would also target the Banks, which are the source of all the anger and frustration in the first place.
One slight issue with that is that anyone on a tracker would be crazy to participate :), as the bank could then use it as an excuse to transfer them to variable.

However, I agree, the government are more likely to listen to bankers than to the general public.

Another option would be to have people move their money en mass to Rabo and other non-NAMA banks.

Is there a bricks and mortar bank than isn't part of NAMA (since many don't trust online banks ... even if they are actually solvent).
 

MPB

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One slight issue with that is that anyone on a tracker would be crazy to participate :), as the bank could then use it as an excuse to transfer them to variable.

However, I agree, the government are more likely to listen to bankers than to the general public.

Another option would be to have people move their money en mass to Rabo and other non-NAMA banks.

Is there a bricks and mortar bank than isn't part of NAMA (since many don't trust online banks ... even if they are actually solvent).
The type of protest I would advocate would involve everybody still making their mortgage repayments but into a special fund or account.

Hence the need for an established grouping to manage the fund.

The Banks are FFs weakspot.

For a yet unknown reason FF felt it necessary to take the debts of an elite, privately owned Bank and make them sovereign.

We, as citizens, at least have a stake in saving the high street Banks but we had no interest whatsoever in Anglo.

Anglo was a Merchant Bank, a Private members club and had no connection to ordinary tax payers.
 

Húrin

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To counter the outright thievery of the Irish people, regarding the banks and NAMA and the generations that will have to pay for their and FF/PDs mess and the current corrupt government (namely FF), is Civil Disobedience in the form of non-payment of taxes an option?
Of course civil disobedience is justified by now. This country feels more like a dictatorship by the day - such is the degree of contempt of the popular will in government.
 

Paddythai

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I would be careful about suggesting civil dis-obedience, non payment of tax or mortgages on an internet forum.
If things do get out of hand and a right wing government take over then people who advocated dis-obedience could be incarcerated or worse.
 

The Underdog

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Withholding taxes won't work - Revenue have draconian powers, and will keep heaping penalty on top of fines on top of misery.

We need a camping that is as broad as possible, and one that even ex. long term FF voters might go with (you can't change the habits of several generations too quickly).

Almost all ordinary people seen to despise NAMA and its concept.

Therefore maybe we could start a non party specific campaign whereby people only purchase goods and services from businesses that display a large "NO TO NAMA - NO TO THE GOLDEN CIRCLE" sticker on their premises / adverts / websites. That way people will be able to choose between genuine Irish businesses, and the ones who support the idea of cronyism.
 
M

MrFunkyBoogaloo

boycott business' owned by FF/GREEN politicians families and known suporters hit them in the pocket it the only thing they understand
+1.. I like this. Any business connected to FF.. that's sure to be a lot!

Spoiled votes are effectively ignored in determining the winners. However, the number might be declared. They have no effect on the quota.
Thanks ivryn

Withholding taxes won't work - Revenue have draconian powers, and will keep heaping penalty on top of fines on top of misery.

We need a camping that is as broad as possible, and one that even ex. long term FF voters might go with (you can't change the habits of several generations too quickly).

Almost all ordinary people seen to despise NAMA and its concept.

Therefore maybe we could start a non party specific campaign whereby people only purchase goods and services from businesses that display a large "NO TO NAMA - NO TO THE GOLDEN CIRCLE" sticker on their premises / adverts / websites. That way people will be able to choose between genuine Irish businesses, and the ones who support the idea of cronyism.
I like this idea too, as an extension of charley's one. But if i may, a flaw would be that any business could put up one of those signs even if they were for NAMA.

Look we are in a ********************in bind....a country to run and not enough money to run it !

Civil disobediance will not help - will only make matters worse in my opinion.

I believe every FF TD /Senator and Activist should be targeted and asked the hard quesations as to how the made such a mess of the country.

People should now decide that never again will they vote blindly for any party because of "Tradition|" but based on an evaluation of their national policies.

I am now working on a series of questions for all canvassers at door steps and public places in the next election which will come sooner than we think.
I do not entirely disagree. But what does it take for a government to listen to it's people. FF and the GP have no mandate to bailout banks, set up NAMA, cut education, health, social welfare and increase taxes. They must go. End of!

All of the monies being pumped in reckless banks could be better spent improving many areas to the betterment of all of society, rather than the select few who built the house of cards and then brought it crashing down.

Enough is enough!
 
M

MrFunkyBoogaloo

I would be careful about suggesting civil dis-obedience, non payment of tax or mortgages on an internet forum.
If things do get out of hand and a right wing government take over then people who advocated dis-obedience could be incarcerated or worse.
talking about breaking the law is different from actually breaking it, no?
 

The Underdog

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+

I like this idea too, as an extension of charley's one. But if i may, a flaw would be that any business could put up one of those signs even if they were for NAMA.
True, but it should be self policing, because if they weren’t genuine, they would soon be challenged by one of their own along the lines of - "I thought you were one of us, do you not remember the favours we did you ?, what are you doing with that sign up, take it down FFS"
 

N17

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Goes against the grain. We've always obeyed the elite in this country. Would love to see it happen but.
Exactly. We always do what we are told. Not a chance.
I agree; I too would love to see it happen cos it is the only thing that will make them realise the real anger when they see ordinary people going to extra ordinary things to show their anger.
I spoke to a TD recently who agreed with me that the high up members of the Gov do not understand the real anger on the street and believe that it is only a few moaners going on and on.
 

Inda Kenny

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We couldnt organise Christmas in this country.
If you asked 5 people to turn for a march 2 would be late 1 would go to the wrong place 1 would be on time and the last person woild be a non show due to a hangover.
We just are unable to get our selves organised.
If we were to do something it would have to be simplen yet effective.
 

petervalhala

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To counter the outright thievery of the Irish people, regarding the banks and NAMA and the generations that will have to pay for their and FF/PDs mess and the current corrupt government (namely FF), is Civil Disobedience in the form of non-payment of taxes an option?

Now i realise, in part, the result of mass non-payment of taxes (where that the case) but something has to be done so that government and banks get the message. "NOT IN MY NAME"


If not what are the other options of civil disobedience and what effects might they have? Would they work or not? Is there support for such action, considering the widespread anger in the country?
As Colm McCarthy has said, anger is not a policy, in fact it gets in the way of rational thought.

A protest against a democratic government, making the neccessary economic decisions, will only result in making it harder for this country to raise the neccessary funds for social and public services.

A march that encourages people to replace self interest, with national interest, would be a much more productive use of time.
 

The Underdog

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As Colm McCarthy has said, anger is not a policy, in fact it gets in the way of rational thought.

A protest against a democratic government, making the neccessary economic decisions, will only result in making it harder for this country to raise the neccessary funds for social and public services.

A march that encourages people to replace self interest, with national interest, would be a much more productive use of time.
That is head in the sand denial, and the right time for that has long passed. The situation has gone way beyond that, in fact it has gone 100 Billion euros beyond that. That sort of thinking never achieves critical change anywhere. Civil rights and democracy the world over have been always been furthered by peaceful protest.
 

petervalhala

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That is head in the sand denial, and the right time for that has long passed. The situation has gone way beyond that, in fact it has gone 100 Billion euros beyond that. That sort of thinking never achieves critical change anywhere. Civil rights and democracy the world over have been always been furthered by peaceful protest.
Protest against what - measures to save the economy, measures to ensure Ireland can continue to borrow the necessary monies to pay welfare/public service?

There are certainly heads in the sand, and they belong to those who ignore economic reality, every other developed country praises the measures taken in Ireland.
 

The Underdog

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Protest against what - measures to save the economy, measures to ensure Ireland can continue to borrow the necessary monies to pay welfare/public service?

There are certainly heads in the sand, and they belong to those who ignore economic reality, every other developed country praises the measures taken in Ireland.
Handing over 100 billion of taxpayers money to bail out corrupt bankers, developers, the golden circle and bond investors, while tens of thousands of ordinary people loose their jobs and have their homes repossessed is no economic solution to anything.
 

jacko

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how come we got 100.000 on the streets of Dublin against the iraq invasion ?
 

petervalhala

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Handing over 100 billion of taxpayers money to bail out corrupt bankers, developers, the golden circle and bond investors, while tens of thousands of ordinary people loose their jobs and have their homes repossessed is no economic solution to anything.
It is precisely because tens of thousands of 'ordinary people' have lost their jobs, that's its necessary to implement measures to ensure a functioning banking system, without which they will be no economic recovery, as there will be no economic activity.

Measures such as requiring 8% tier one capital will allow the banks to access funds at a reasonable cost, and therefore provide credit to businesses.

Also €100b is not being 'handed over', it is being invested and will have a return for the taxpayer in the medium term.

In the short term the most pressing requirement is credit availability, the requirement for BoI and AIB to both provide €3b each in loans will go along way to providing the much needed cash to businesses.
 

The Underdog

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It is precisely because tens of thousands of 'ordinary people' have lost their jobs, that's its necessary to implement measures to ensure a functioning banking system, without which they will be no economic recovery, as there will be no economic activity.

Measures such as requiring 8% tier one capital will allow the banks to access funds at a reasonable cost, and therefore provide credit to businesses.

Also €100b is not being 'handed over', it is being invested and will have a return for the taxpayer in the medium term.

In the short term the most pressing requirement is credit availability, the requirement for BoI and AIB to both provide €3b each in loans will go along way to providing the much needed cash to businesses.
Wrong. Ordinary deposits and credit could easily have been protected in other ways, but that would have meant the golden circle boys taking a hit. Its about bailing out corrupt bankers, millionaire developers, and bond investors.

"NAMA = An investment" Well I've heard them all now, you've some brass neck, I'll give you that. How much have you been lined up to make from SCAMA then ?
 

MPB

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It is precisely because tens of thousands of 'ordinary people' have lost their jobs, that's its necessary to implement measures to ensure a functioning banking system, without which they will be no economic recovery, as there will be no economic activity.

Measures such as requiring 8% tier one capital will allow the banks to access funds at a reasonable cost, and therefore provide credit to businesses.

Also €100b is not being 'handed over', it is being invested and will have a return for the taxpayer in the medium term.

In the short term the most pressing requirement is credit availability, the requirement for BoI and AIB to both provide €3b each in loans will go along way to providing the much needed cash to businesses.
Tell me this.

When the Banks are flush with money again, who are they going to lend to?

We are clearing the debts of the Banks and writing down the debts of Developers for loans above 5 million.

This will give them a clean bill of health and make them credit worthy again.

What about ordinary householders and small businesses?

They will still have the same debts, accrued at a time of higher earnings, lower taxes and massive asset/property values.

These debts are now going to prevent them from accessing credit.

They are no longer credit worthy. The Banks will not lend to them. They will not meet the new credit criteria.

We do not, as you say have a credit problem in this country.

We had a credit problem and that credit has led us to have a debt problem.

This Govt have bailed out the lenders, when they should have bailed out the borrowers.
 


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