Civil Marriage, convalidation and the Roman Catholic Church

Wascurito

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There have been three referendums in the last 30 years or so in the Republic of Ireland dealing with the status of civil marriage: two on divorce and one on marriage equality, also known as same sex marriage. On all occasions, the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) has vociferously campaigned against all the changes, sometimes using threatening and quite apocalyptic language in opposition to the proposals, deeming them to be an unacceptable diminution of the status of civil marriage.

Civil marriage is a legal rite, the laws governing it are decided on by the state and I'm not aware of any other state institution for which the RCC professes such concern. However, couples who avail of civil marriage (as opposed to church marriage) are actually not regarded as married by the RCC and must undergo an ecclesiastical rite known as convalidation since the couple's chosen form of marriage is not approved under canon law.

So, despite all the high-flown rhetoric. the RCC doesn't really recognize civil marriage. It's worth bearing this in mind in the run-up to November 2018 when there's likely to be another referendum on the divorce laws. No doubt, the RCC will be decrying another diminution in the status of civil marriage even while the Church itself accords it little or no status at all.
 


Lumpy Talbot

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All part of their attempt to say that they 'own' the social ceremony of marriage without actually saying so in so many words.

One wonders do they regard jewish couples as married if their wedding has not been 'convalidated' by the RCC.

Utter vandals when it comes to the social and ceremonial history of mankind, the churchmen, proposing a form of amnesia when it comes to the long history of marriage before their club was ever formed.
 

Wascurito

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All part of their attempt to say that they 'own' the social ceremony of marriage without actually saying so in so many words.

One wonders do they regard jewish couples as married if their wedding has not been 'convalidated' by the RCC.

Utter vandals when it comes to the social and ceremonial history of mankind, the churchmen, proposing a form of amnesia when it comes to the long history of marriage before their club was ever formed.
For much of its history, it didn't bother celebrating marriage at all. It was all left to the laity.
 

GDPR

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For much of its history, it didn't bother celebrating marriage at all. It was all left to the laity.
In the Western Church, in the East it was a bit different because of the amount of encratism (the error that all sex, even with marriage, is forbidden to Christians) made Churchmen start celebrating marriage with a lot of fuss in Church a lot earlier. A major difference between the Synagogue and the Ekklesia it should be noted is that the latter has always been uncomfortable with anything but love marriages (hence the cult of St Valentine) while the former tends to be uncomfortable with them. I cannot work out whether you actually believe the stuff reported in the OP is "tikkun olam" or that you are just gleeful at "Edom" being undermined even further.
 
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There have been three referendums in the last 30 years or so in the Republic of Ireland dealing with the status of civil marriage: two on divorce and one on marriage equality, also known as same sex marriage. On all occasions, the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) has vociferously campaigned against all the changes, sometimes using threatening and quite apocalyptic language in opposition to the proposals, deeming them to be an unacceptable diminution of the status of civil marriage.

Civil marriage is a legal rite, the laws governing it are decided on by the state and I'm not aware of any other state institution for which the RCC professes such concern. However, couples who avail of civil marriage (as opposed to church marriage) are actually not regarded as married by the RCC and must undergo an ecclesiastical rite known as convalidation since the couple's chosen form of marriage is not approved under canon law.

So, despite all the high-flown rhetoric. the RCC doesn't really recognize civil marriage. It's worth bearing this in mind in the run-up to November 2018 when there's likely to be another referendum on the divorce laws. No doubt, the RCC will be decrying another diminution in the status of civil marriage even while the Church itself accords it little or no status at all.
I, a Catholic, made this point repeatedly during the same sex marriage referendum.

So long as one conception of marriage isn't imposed on people who have another, in both directions, I couldn't see the problem - Catholicism doesn't view civil marriage as marriage even when heterosexual. The position during the referendum didn't make much rational sense to me.
 

The Nal

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They vote no to any change. They work off a playbook from thousands of years ago.

They're morons.
 

GDPR

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"The point is driven home succinctly in the zoharic exegesis of the words,“Your kinsmen who hate you,who spurn you because of Me”(Isa. 66:5). The “kinsmen”are identified as the “children of Esau,” in other words, the Christians, “for there is no nation that mocks Israel to their face and who spit in their faces like the children of Edom, and it is said that they are all impure like a menstruous woman (niddah), and this is [the import of the expression] ‘who spurn you’(menaddekhem).” The metaphorical comparison of the children of Edom to a niddah, based on the biblical idiom menaddekhem, discloses an essential dimension of the zoharic understanding of the ontological impurity of Christianity.The spiritual attraction of the Church is comparable to seduction of the woman during her menstrual period when intercourse is forbidden. Going beyond the normative halakhic restriction against sexual relations with a menstruating woman,the author of the Zohar,in conformity with the symbology adopted by other kabbalistic authors of the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries, associated the blood of menstruation with the demonic potency. In one particularly noteworthy passage,the Zohar delineates intercourse with a menstruous woman as one of three acts that drive the Shekhinah away from the world,the other two being intercourse with a Christian woman,literally,“the daughter of an alien god”(based on Mal.2:11) – that is, the god of estrangement or the demonic Other Side – and killing one’s own children by aborting a fetus in the womb."

From Chapter 6 of Luminal Darkness, Imaginal Readings from Zoharic Literature by Eliot Woflson who by the way is a highly praised main line Jewish academic. The Zohar of course being one if not the most holy book in the mystical stream of Rabbinic Judaism (there is also in all justice a rationalist stream opposing it).

That quote though sheds light on why even though the West is tettering in the edge of an abyss the OP with all his high IQ and sharp perception is supporting nonsense that will only serve to further undermine our Civilization or what is left of it.
 

Upper Chamber

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I understand Channel 4 in the U.K. has on upcoming programme on Muslim religous only marriages which have no legal status there and can be very easily dissolved by the man. It leaves a lot of women in a very perilous situation without any legal recourse to property and maintenance. Hopefully we have better safeguards here.
 

Catalpast

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There have been three referendums in the last 30 years or so in the Republic of Ireland dealing with the status of civil marriage: two on divorce and one on marriage equality, also known as same sex marriage. On all occasions, the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) has vociferously campaigned against all the changes, sometimes using threatening and quite apocalyptic language in opposition to the proposals, deeming them to be an unacceptable diminution of the status of civil marriage.

Civil marriage is a legal rite, the laws governing it are decided on by the state and I'm not aware of any other state institution for which the RCC professes such concern. However, couples who avail of civil marriage (as opposed to church marriage) are actually not regarded as married by the RCC and must undergo an ecclesiastical rite known as convalidation since the couple's chosen form of marriage is not approved under canon law.

So, despite all the high-flown rhetoric. the RCC doesn't really recognize civil marriage. It's worth bearing this in mind in the run-up to November 2018 when there's likely to be another referendum on the divorce laws. No doubt, the RCC will be decrying another diminution in the status of civil marriage even while the Church itself accords it little or no status at all.
And your point is?
 

Ceartgoleor

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There have been three referendums in the last 30 years or so in the Republic of Ireland dealing with the status of civil marriage: two on divorce and one on marriage equality, also known as same sex marriage. On all occasions, the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) has vociferously campaigned against all the changes, sometimes using threatening and quite apocalyptic language in opposition to the proposals, deeming them to be an unacceptable diminution of the status of civil marriage.

Civil marriage is a legal rite, the laws governing it are decided on by the state and I'm not aware of any other state institution for which the RCC professes such concern. However, couples who avail of civil marriage (as opposed to church marriage) are actually not regarded as married by the RCC and must undergo an ecclesiastical rite known as convalidation since the couple's chosen form of marriage is not approved under canon law.

So, despite all the high-flown rhetoric. the RCC doesn't really recognize civil marriage. It's worth bearing this in mind in the run-up to November 2018 when there's likely to be another referendum on the divorce laws. No doubt, the RCC will be decrying another diminution in the status of civil marriage even while the Church itself accords it little or no status at all.
Interesting. What does the London Catholic Church say on the matter ?

Or is your prejudice concerned only with the RCC ?
 

Lumpy Talbot

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Interesting. What does the London Catholic Church say on the matter ?

Or is your prejudice concerned only with the RCC ?
The Brompton Oratory lot tend to have their own version of catholicism. As many do.
 

sadmal

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I understand Channel 4 in the U.K. has on upcoming programme on Muslim religous only marriages which have no legal status there and can be very easily dissolved by the man. It leaves a lot of women in a very perilous situation without any legal recourse to property and maintenance. Hopefully we have better safeguards here.
Annulments granted by the Catholic church are not recognised by the state and a valid marriage remains that provided the civil part of the ceremony was carried out. Therefore a spouse cannot be kicked out of the family home or left without their lawful inheritance.
 

Spirit Of Newgrange

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it is interesting that the flavour of Catholicism in post-revolution France is far more accommodating and reasonable than the nutty catholicism you often found in twentieth century Spain or Ireland.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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it is interesting that the flavour of Catholicism in post-revolution France is far more accommodating and reasonable than the nutty catholicism you often found in twentieth century Spain or Ireland.
Best thing they ever did was put a bonnet on the Marian statues. And arguably one of Ireland's biggest mistakes was in not going the full French.
 

Wascurito

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Interesting. What does the London Catholic Church say on the matter ?

Or is your prejudice concerned only with the RCC ?
I'm not a practicing member of the "London Catholic Church" (didn't even know there was one) so I suggest you use Google.

What does "prejudice" refer to in the second sentence of your post?
 

Wascurito

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I understand Channel 4 in the U.K. has on upcoming programme on Muslim religous only marriages which have no legal status there and can be very easily dissolved by the man. It leaves a lot of women in a very perilous situation without any legal recourse to property and maintenance. Hopefully we have better safeguards here.
A Muslim man can supposedly divorce the wifey by saying "Talaq, talaq, talaq" but I don't think that's widely accepted these days.
 

Wascurito

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"The point is driven home succinctly in the zoharic exegesis of the words,“Your kinsmen who hate you,who spurn you because of Me”(Isa. 66:5). The “kinsmen”are identified as the “children of Esau,” in other words, the Christians, “for there is no nation that mocks Israel to their face and who spit in their faces like the children of Edom, and it is said that they are all impure like a menstruous woman (niddah), and this is [the import of the expression] ‘who spurn you’(menaddekhem).” The metaphorical comparison of the children of Edom to a niddah, based on the biblical idiom menaddekhem, discloses an essential dimension of the zoharic understanding of the ontological impurity of Christianity.The spiritual attraction of the Church is comparable to seduction of the woman during her menstrual period when intercourse is forbidden. Going beyond the normative halakhic restriction against sexual relations with a menstruating woman,the author of the Zohar,in conformity with the symbology adopted by other kabbalistic authors of the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries, associated the blood of menstruation with the demonic potency. In one particularly noteworthy passage,the Zohar delineates intercourse with a menstruous woman as one of three acts that drive the Shekhinah away from the world,the other two being intercourse with a Christian woman,literally,“the daughter of an alien god”(based on Mal.2:11) – that is, the god of estrangement or the demonic Other Side – and killing one’s own children by aborting a fetus in the womb."

From Chapter 6 of Luminal Darkness, Imaginal Readings from Zoharic Literature by Eliot Woflson who by the way is a highly praised main line Jewish academic. The Zohar of course being one if not the most holy book in the mystical stream of Rabbinic Judaism (there is also in all justice a rationalist stream opposing it).

That quote though sheds light on why even though the West is tettering in the edge of an abyss the OP with all his high IQ and sharp perception is supporting nonsense that will only serve to further undermine our Civilization or what is left of it.
Too much of a tendency to interfere in state affairs has been the downfall of the RCC. They should maintain a radical separation from state powers. I don't think that priests should even be acting as marriage registrars. Why facilitate a legal institution they're increasingly estranged from?
 
D

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As an institution, Christian marriage is effectively finished.

Civil marriage - more of a "well I might commit to this for the rest of my life. But it's unlikely." Then there's the legal fiction called gay "marriage".

It should be scrapped altogether.
 

gerhard dengler

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I, a Catholic, made this point repeatedly during the same sex marriage referendum.

So long as one conception of marriage isn't imposed on people who have another, in both directions, I couldn't see the problem - Catholicism doesn't view civil marriage as marriage even when heterosexual. The position during the referendum didn't make much rational sense to me.
If you are Catholic, you accept the teaching that one man can marry one woman unto death, according to church law.
It follows that one would wish that the state would support that concept too.
That is the rationale of the position taken.

Of course the state can decide that it knows better by allowing for anyone to marry anyone else.
 


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