Civil Partnerships: The Long Term Consequences

Roll_On

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We can pretty much assume that civil partnerships are a short term solution to temporarily pacify a minority because:

1)every country that has gay marriage used to have civil partnerships
2) the term "civil partnership" is meant to be deliberately verbally awkward, in the UK civil unions are simply referred to as marriage in common speech.
3) In time the legal distinction between marriage and civil unions will become just as redundant as the verbal distinction.

However:
FF seem to have gotten it into their heads that Ireland is special and that people will go around saying "civil partnership", meaning that they see civil partnerships as a long term solution.

If they genuinely believe that, then the morals of FF have to seriously be questioned. What they are doing is deliberately setting up an institution to benefit a minority group, they are promoting a separation in society. They are isolating a group of people and saying that they are different and they have to be treated differently.

we have seen countless times how deliberately isolating minorities has had dire consequences. The Ghettoisation of some urban areas of the UK and US has been a thorn in the sides of those societies, so why is the government deliberately following the UK/US model of isolating minorities?

There are negative economic and social consequences of this isolation, at a time like this should we not adopt a more positive attitude and try to create a better socio-economic environment?

Also, they are the only party against gay marriage, why is that?
 


biteback

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FF's position mainly seems to be as a result of the fear that a referendum on gay marriage would be defeated, although I would personally think the chances of that would be small.
 

LiquidPaddy

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I think you might be conflating a number of complex political issues.

Firstly, there might be consequences had the Civil Partnership Act come into force, but we're waiting for the Finance Act 2010 to see how the tax/ welfare elements come into play and so it still remains hypothetical to try and imagine long-term consequences.

I'm not sure how Civil Partnership can be seen as having anything to do with ghettoisation, to be honest. The isolation of lesbians and gay men comes more from homophobia and fears about coming out. If people cannot come to terms with being 'gay', they're unlikely to marry another woman/ man and become public about their sexual orientation. More generally, I'm proud to be a minority and think we need to make much more of being a minority community in Ireland.

Sure, there is some evidence about Civil Partnership leading to same-sex marriage, but the current administration is still under the thumb of conservative catholicism on matters of sexuality/ sexual rights. That said, the govt will be gone at the next election. While gay marriage has emerged in some jurisdictions, it is not yet widespread and it is a westernised notion of sexuality.

Another complicating factor about the issue of gay marriage is the gap between the majority of the LGBT community who aren't really political about sexuality, the proponents of gay marriage (who don't offer public information about themselves on their Marriage Equality website?) and those who have advocated civil partnership. Those who, like me, are in favour of CP are often against the notion of marriage as an institution for same-sex couples. Personally, CP is a vehicle that lesbians and gay men could fashion so as to make it not patriarchal or embued with negative elements of heterosexual marriage/ divorce. At a more pragmatic level, gay marriage won't help many ageing same-sex couples who would benefit from being able to sort their legal, financial, property affairs etc. in case one or other partner dies (i.e. they might not have 4-5 years to await a new campaign for gay marriage). While one might be idealistic about a more egalitarian gay marriage, it isn't on the political table right now.

If you' or anyone else reading this thread are interested in this civil partnership/ gay marriage debate and you are in Dublin, Senator Ivana Bacik is speaking in TCD on tuesday next about 'civil partnership or gay marriage' on Tuesday 9 November 11-12.30 in the Neil/Hoey Lecture Theatre, Trinity Long Room Hub, Fellows’ Square, Trinity College Dublin - it's the new horrid cube-like building as you come down in through the Nassau Street entrance and down the slip...
 

ocoonassa

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Also, they are the only party against gay marriage, why is that?
They're actually mostly Holy Roman Catholics. Holy Roman Catholics are against this type of thing. God made lots of other gay mammals but when it comes to the Homo's He (sic) is dead against homos. We know this because He (sic) told some bronze age Jewish goatherds about it. The people in FF believe them.
 

White Horse

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FF seem to have gotten it into their heads that Ireland is special and that people will go around saying "civil partnership", meaning that they see civil partnerships as a long term solution.
It depends on the circles you move in.

I have never heard one person talk about the civil partneship legislation.

It is something that occupies the minds of us anoraks on this site. However apart from us and homosexual activists, it has gone unnoticed.

Homsexuals are invisable where I live. The only homosexuals I've ever met were in Dublin. In most parts of Ireland, they keep a very low profile.

Will things change dramatically? I really don't know.
 

Ruaidhri

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Survey reveals dramatic changes in social attitudes | Socialist Party

I believe that if Gay Marriage went to referendum it would be accepted.I don't think they want to move it forward though because some conservative constituents who vote Fianna Fáil may be put off by this and FF could lose some of their rural seats.

*sorry about Socialist Party link. Its just mentioning figures from a recent Irish Times survey but I couldn't find the survey so I put up Socialist Party link instead.
 

Roll_On

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I believe that if Gay Marriage went to referendum it would be accepted.I don't think they want to move it forward though because some conservative constituents who vote Fianna Fáil may be put off by this and FF could lose some of their rural seats.
Ireland isn't America though, Conservative does not equal homophobic and conservative does not mean racist. That's Americanised simplified politics, Irish people can be conservative and still be very cosmopolitain and open minded.

The likes of choir are not representitive of Irish conservatives no matter how much they claim to represent a "silent majority"
 

White Horse

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I believe that if Gay Marriage went to referendum it would be accepted.I don't think they want to move it forward though because some conservative constituents who vote Fianna Fáil may be put off by this and FF could lose some of their rural seats.
The problem would be the adoption rights that are inseparable from marriage.

Many Irish people, even in these liberal times, continue to be hostile towards homosexuals raising children.
 

Luigi Vampa

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Ireland isn't America though, Conservative does not equal homophobic and conservative does not mean racist. That's Americanised simplified politics, Irish people can be conservative and still be very cosmopolitain and open minded.

The likes of choir are not representitive of Irish conservatives no matter how much they claim to represent a "silent majority"
Personally I think the sate should have nothing to do with any type of marriage, hetro or gay, and that the state should just limit itself to civil partnerships, and give the same civil rights and status to them that married couples currently have.

The probable solution for the state is to hold a referendum on "Gay Marriage", then everyone can then abide by the democratic outcome, or live in another country.
 

Tim Johnston

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More generally, I'm proud to be a minority and think we need to make much more of being a minority community in Ireland.
Are you talking about the Labour Party? :)

Personally I think the sate should have nothing to do with any type of marriage, hetro or gay, and that the state should just limit itself to civil partnerships, and give the same civil rights and status to them that married couples currently have.
+1
"Marriage" is for churches.
 

Ingersoll

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Personally I think the sate should have nothing to do with any type of marriage, hetro or gay, and that the state should just limit itself to civil partnerships, and give the same civil rights and status to them that married couples currently have.

The probable solution for the state is to hold a referendum on "Gay Marriage", then everyone can then abide by the democratic outcome, or live in another country.
This is surely the very definition of the tyranny of the masses. Some things are just the right thing to do and should not be put up for a vote. I fail to see how two consenting adults getting married, regardless of gender-mix can bother anybody except religious nuts.
 

breakingnews

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Here we go again with anti-gay nonsense. Can people just ever get over it. Gays won't be going away.
 

Magror14

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The Constitution appears to protect the institution of marriage to because it links the family to marriage in Article 41 (and without looking it up there is some case law on that). This causes a difficulty for civil partnership for heteros and marraige for gays. It is a legal reality without a Referendum.
 

Tim Johnston

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I fail to see how two consenting adults getting married, regardless of gender-mix can bother anybody except religious nuts.
Well, I think there are a lot of irreligious people who have a problem with it but that's neither here nor there. The main issue is that no matter who wants to get married to whom they still need a third party - be it the state or a minister or whatever - to do the marrying. That requires acceptance on their part, which some say the state has no business interfering in except as an enforcer of contracts.
 

Luigi Vampa

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This is surely the very definition of the tyranny of the masses. Some things are just the right thing to do and should not be put up for a vote.
But we are constantly told that the majority of people and polls agree with Gay marriage. So you only want democratic votes and referenda on the terms that you agree with ? Very democratic.
 
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corelli

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It depends on the circles you move in.

I have never heard one person talk about the civil partneship legislation.

It is something that occupies the minds of us anoraks on this site. However apart from us and homosexual activists, it has gone unnoticed.

Homsexuals are invisable where I live. The only homosexuals I've ever met were in Dublin. In most parts of Ireland, they keep a very low profile.

Will things change dramatically? I really don't know.
I don't accept that. I am from (rural) sic, Ireland (galway) and gay people are not invisable at all. They don't flaunt it, are part of everyday discourse and society and are totally accepted. There appears to be a discord as between the gay lobby and society, where there is far less discrimination than proposed. I hear absolutely NO opposition to the partnership bill and very little to any putative marriage referendum.
 

Hooch

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FF aren't the only party, Enda Kenny came to DCU to give a talk last year and when asked abouyt the issue he explicitly said he opposed same-sex marriage but supported civil partnerships. Having said that I'm not sure how strong that conviction is and whether or not he would cave in to Gilmore on the issue when the two parties inevitably end up in government together.
 

White Horse

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I don't accept that. I am from (rural) sic, Ireland (galway) and gay people are not invisable at all. They don't flaunt it, are part of everyday discourse and society and are totally accepted.
Our experience is radically different then. I spend much of my free time involved in a variety of local activities (football, drama, credit union, politics, schools etc etc). There is not one person who is identifiable as a homosexual.

I hear absolutely NO opposition to the partnership bill and very little to any putative marriage referendum.
There is no interest beacuse homosexuals are not part of mainstream society. They exclude themselves.

They live largely in cities where they can be anonymous. They socialise together and enforce a form of voluntary apartheid.
 


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