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Clinical skills decline?


Ardillaun

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I've been hearing some talk over here that over the last year or two Canadian grads from Irish med schools are behind on their clinical skills compared to the locally trained crowd. Historically, this would certainly not be the case. So two questions:

1. Has anybody else noticed such a change in Irish med students?

2. Financial collapse aside, have there been any other changes (e.g. in the curriculum) in the last few years that would reduce competence in basic examination of patients?
 
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Analyzer

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Irish Med School is surprisingly easy to pass if you have paid full fees.

I heard that the management have given the instruction, that nobody who pays fees should "be allowed to fail".

It has become a racket.
 

Ulster-Lad

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The Irish Medical system is the envy of the world don't you know.
 

james5001

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Irish Med School is surprisingly easy to pass if you have paid full fees.

I heard that the management have given the instruction, that nobody who pays fees should "be allowed to fail".

It has become a racket.
It has an extremely hard entrance exam. For some, I have heard that lectures start at 8.
 

ManUnited

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Irish Med School is surprisingly easy to pass if you have paid full fees.

I heard that the management have given the instruction, that nobody who pays fees should "be allowed to fail".

It has become a racket.
Some people will believe anything.
 
D

Deleted member 17573

I've been hearing some talk over here that, over the last year or two, local (Canadian) grads from Irish med schools are behind on their clinical skills compared to the locals. Historically, this would certainly not be the case. So two questions:

1. Has anybody else noticed such a change in Irish med students?

2. Financial collapse aside, have there been any other changes (e.g. in the curriculum) in the last few years that would reduce competence in basic examination of patients?
If there is a problem with the products of the medical schools one of the reasons can be the quality of training - but there is also the matter of candidate selection. These candidates have emerged from a sweatshop secondary education environment and some, at least, seem to be making a career choice based on the principle that achieving 600 points almost requires one to opt for medicine. Have they really had time and freedom from parental and other influences to make a considered career choice?
I have long argued that we may be attaching too much importance to the pursuit of "fairness" in the award of university places, primarily to the detriment of a good secondary education for all, but maybe it is now also contributing to this type of outcome.
 

james5001

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If there is a problem with the products of the medical schools one of the reasons can be the quality of training - but there is also the matter of candidate selection. These candidates have emerged from a sweatshop secondary education environment and some, at least, seem to be making a career choice based on the principle that achieving 600 points almost requires one to opt for medicine. Have they really had time and freedom from parental and other influences to make a considered career choice?
I have long argued that we may be attaching too much importance to the pursuit of "fairness" in the award of university places, primarily to the detriment of a good secondary education for all, but maybe it is now also contributing to this type of outcome.
I agree that there seems to be a kind of expectancy whereby if you achieve high points the degree you do should reflect that fact, which shouldn't be the case at all. But seeing that the LC has little to do with learning and more to do with memory, medical students should have to get at least over 500 points as there is so much to learn. But when it comes to problem solving, the LC doesn't really do that.
 

skiii

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The Harney era has left its mark on Irish Medical schools. A fair few academics are more interested in setting up research firms on site and securing patents than they are in teaching students. In the new ''enterprise" culture they have taken their eyes off the ball in pursuit of personal gain.The students are as bright as buttons but are being badly served.
 

OCicero

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The Harney era has left its mark on Irish Medical schools. A fair few academics are more interested in setting up research firms on site and securing patents than they are in teaching students. In the new ''enterprise" culture they have taken their eyes off the ball in pursuit of personal gain.The students are as bright as buttons but are being badly served.
Rot set in when Vice President for XYZ posts arrived on campus?
 

skiii

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Rot set in when Vice President for XYZ posts arrived on campus?
It is a huge problem and those at the top seem to be answerable to no one. It comes under the guise of ''enterprise" but it's all about drawing down grant money and securing patents. The teaching duties are down the toilet and ,as I said,it is most prevalent at the very top. Ardilaun's story from Canada does not surprise me.
 

OCicero

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It is a huge problem and those at the top seem to be answerable to no one. It comes under the guise of ''enterprise" but it's all about drawing down grant money and securing patents. The teaching duties are down the toilet and ,as I said,it is most prevalent at the very top. Ardilaun's story from Canada does not surprise me.
I fondly remember the tradition - I am talking about science now - that the most senior academics teach the most junior students so as they get a good grounding at the start of their studies.

Now a big priority is campus companies that consume grants before they fold and their sponsors move onto a new crop of such enterprises.
 

skiii

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I fondly remember the tradition - I am talking about science now - that the most senior academics teach the most junior students so as they get a good grounding at the start of their studies.

Now a big priority is campus companies that consume grants before they fold and their sponsors move onto a new crop of such enterprises.
It is a huge problem and one that has not been addressed. Our Universities now have the disastrous character our financial institutions had; there is no regulation and no outside monitoring of what has become a free for all.
 

Ardillaun

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I have no hard evidence about this alleged trend and don't know if it's just 'fings ain't what they used to be' geezer talk or something more substantial.
 

OCicero

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I have no hard evidence about this alleged trend and don't know if it's just 'fings ain't what they used to be' geezer talk or something more substantial.
I sympathise.
 

skiii

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I have no hard evidence about this alleged trend and don't know if it's just 'fings ain't what they used to be' geezer talk or something more substantial.
Believe me, it's not. The teaching is under resourced and a lot of the professors are awol, on ''enterprise'' business.
 

james5001

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It is a huge problem and one that has not been addressed. Our Universities now have the disastrous character our financial institutions had; there is no regulation and no outside monitoring of what has become a free for all.
Could you expand?
 

ger12

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Feb 25, 2011
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I've been hearing some talk over here that over the last year or two Canadian grads from Irish med schools are behind on their clinical skills compared to the locally trained crowd. Historically, this would certainly not be the case. So two questions:

1. Has anybody else noticed such a change in Irish med students?

2. Financial collapse aside, have there been any other changes (e.g. in the curriculum) in the last few years that would reduce competence in basic examination of patients?
Interesting. The crop of interns I think each year has improved a little (the girls in particular). Though I don't see as many med students about the place (large Dublin teaching hospital).
 

44percent

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Purely anecdotal: a relative in hospital recently amazed that a junior doctor unable to take bloods. Assistance had to be sent for. One swallow etc.
 

damus

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How about this. Four ambulance works in addition to one member of staff have been arrested in the UK on suspicion of manslaughter after a patient who had dialled 999 complaining of chest pains, died after being left untreated in the waiting room. Now what is unclear is whether he was immediately triaged on his arrival in to ED and was redirected to the non-urgent waiting area by the triage nurse, or whether he was just left by ambulance crews in the ED waiting room. Anyway, he subsequently collapsed outside ED and died from a heart attack after he left ED to fetch a drink.

Ambulance workers arrested for manslaughter after man died at the entrance to A&E department | Mail Online
 

james5001

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Purely anecdotal: a relative in hospital recently amazed that a junior doctor unable to take bloods. Assistance had to be sent for. One swallow etc.
Finding a vein can be difficult.
 
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