Coast Guard helicopter with four crew missing off west coast

artfoley56

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which means that the mission was not "doomed from the moment it left dublin Airport" as you luridly suggest.
its clear that him and his ilk feel that they were doomed from the start as it was a female pilot
 


Dedogs

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This particular report was not about the specifics of the crash. The purpose of this report was to look at the wider issue of how SAR in Ireland is regulated and organised and to make recommendations as to how that should be improved.

The crash investigation is being carried out by the Air Accident Investigation unit. It has been repeatedly, laboriously pointed out to you that she did not ignore anyone.
in fairness mate she did nothin till it was too late after been told there was a big ************************************ rock in front of them 10 seconds before.... she was lost and she wasnt takin advise from any man....
 

Pabilito

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in fairness mate she did nothin till it was too late after been told there was a big ************************************ rock in front of them 10 seconds before.... she was lost and she wasnt takin advise from any man....
I think it was more of a superiority issue rather than a gender issue.. she was a pilot and he was a just a winch operator. As I’ve said here before, pilots are not inclined to take instructions from lesser qualified non pilots..

She didn’t quite ignore him but initiated a slow measured and protracted response to his timely warning which resulted in disaster.

Under the circumstances, the pilot in control should have taken immediate urgent evasive action with an obstacle dead ahead of the flight path.
 

Pabilito

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No. I'm one of the posters saying leave the investigators to do the job.

which means that the mission was not "doomed from the moment it left dublin Airport" as you luridly suggest.
Luridly ?.. what's your "lurid" term along with all it's connotations got to do with any of my posts on this thread?
 

Nebuchadnezzar

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I think it was more of a superiority issue rather than a gender issue.. she was a pilot and he was a just a winch operator. As I’ve said here before, pilots are not inclined to take instructions from lesser qualified non pilots..

She didn’t quite ignore him but initiated a slow measured and protracted response to his timely warning which resulted in disaster.

Under the circumstances, the pilot in control should have immediately taken urgent evasive action with an obstacle dead hard of the flight path.
I restarted this thread following the recent release of the Review of Oversight of Search and Rescue (SAR) Aviation Operations in Ireland, the report by Professor Prof. Jules Kneepkens, former EASA Rulemaking Director, Director General of Civil Aviation in Belgium and Civil Aviation Director in the Netherlands. The review process and the report itself were also the subject of peer review by various SAR entities in other jurisdictions. It was completed in early August and submitted to the AAIU along with a series of follow-up actions to ensure full implementation of the report’s recommendations. It’s a major work and hopefully significant action will follow on from it. You have absolutely nothing to say about it.
 

Dedogs

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I think it was more of a superiority issue rather than a gender issue.. she was a pilot and he was a just a winch operator. As I’ve said here before, pilots are not inclined to take instructions from lesser qualified non pilots..

She didn’t quite ignore him but initiated a slow measured and protracted response to his timely warning which resulted in disaster.

Under the circumstances, the pilot in control should have taken immediate urgent evasive action with an obstacle dead ahead of the flight path.
i get what youre sayin mate only i think if she was a man the copilot would of been able to take over quicker when he saw she wasnt reactin quick enough..... another thing if it was a man was captain i bet the report would of been out by now and it would be pilot error!!!!!
 

Pabilito

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I restarted this thread following the recent release of the Review of Oversight of Search and Rescue (SAR) Aviation Operations in Ireland, the report by Professor Prof. Jules Kneepkens, former EASA Rulemaking Director, Director General of Civil Aviation in Belgium and Civil Aviation Director in the Netherlands. The review process and the report itself were also the subject of peer review by various SAR entities in other jurisdictions. It was completed in early August and submitted to the AAIU along with a series of follow-up actions to ensure full implementation of the report’s recommendations. It’s a major work and hopefully significant action will follow on from it. You have absolutely nothing to say about it.
Ok, I'm abroad at the moment without my laptop\full internet access but will study the SAR Review when I get back next week and let you know what I think about it.
 

Pabilito

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I restarted this thread following the recent release of the Review of Oversight of Search and Rescue (SAR) Aviation Operations in Ireland, the report by Professor Prof. Jules Kneepkens, former EASA Rulemaking Director, Director General of Civil Aviation in Belgium and Civil Aviation Director in the Netherlands. The review process and the report itself were also the subject of peer review by various SAR entities in other jurisdictions. It was completed in early August and submitted to the AAIU along with a series of follow-up actions to ensure full implementation of the report’s recommendations. It’s a major work and hopefully significant action will follow on from it. You have absolutely nothing to say about it.
Ok, I'm abroad at the moment without my laptop\full internet access but will study the SAR Review when I get back next week and let you know what I think about it.
I’ve read over that report and it’s all about management and oversight of SAR operations but nothing specifically related to what happened or didn’t happen on that fateful night of the accident on the flight deck of R116..

R116 had four crew consisting of two pilots and two winch persons. The pilots were flying the aircraft and one of the non pilot winchmen was assigned FLIR watch., i.e. real night vision camera imagery of the scene directly ahead of the helicopter which was flying low over open sea at just 200 feet and at a speed of approx 165 Kilometres Per Hour heading east roughly 10 miles off the Mayo coast.

The winch operator viewing the FLIR (Forward Looking Infra Red) saw an obstacle in the form of an Island dead ahead and warned the pilots about it roughly 10 seconds in advance of impact during which time the helicopter covered the 600 meters distance to the Island. During that time the helicopter didn’t make any discernable change in course or altitude until the final moment that it impacted with the Island.

The issues and big questions here are:

- Why the helicopter pilots were unaware of the existence of a tall Island directly ahead of their planned flight path.

- Why they were flying so low and fast in unfamiliar territory.

- Why they didn’t make any change in course or speed until the last moment despite a late but timely warning.

- Why were the pilots themselves not observing the FLIR imagery, the only real time night vision system onboard.


Deferring to a report about oversight of operations and management seems deliberately evasive.. this is about pilots flying an aircraft in imperfect conditions and consequently needing the ability to react to unexpected circumstances in real time..
 

Éire Abú

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I’ve read over that report and it’s all about management and oversight of SAR operations but nothing specifically related to what happened or didn’t happen on that fateful night of the accident on the flight deck of R116..

R116 had four crew consisting of two pilots and two winch persons. The pilots were flying the aircraft and one of the non pilot winchmen was assigned FLIR watch., i.e. real night vision camera imagery of the scene directly ahead of the helicopter which was flying low over open sea at just 200 feet and at a speed of approx 165 Kilometres Per Hour heading east roughly 10 miles off the Mayo coast.

The winch operator viewing the FLIR (Forward Looking Infra Red) saw an obstacle in the form of an Island dead ahead and warned the pilots about it roughly 10 seconds in advance of impact during which time the helicopter covered the 600 meters distance to the Island. During that time the helicopter didn’t make any discernable change in course or altitude until the final moment that it impacted with the Island.

The issues and big questions here are:

- Why the helicopter pilots were unaware of the existence of a tall Island directly ahead of their planned flight path.

- Why they were flying so low and fast in unfamiliar territory.

- Why they didn’t make any change in course or speed until the last moment despite a late but timely warning.

- Why were the pilots themselves not observing the FLIR imagery, the only real time night vision system onboard.


Deferring to a report about oversight of operations and management seems deliberately evasive.. this is about pilots flying an aircraft in imperfect conditions and consequently needing the ability to react to unexpected circumstances in real time..
My own view is that these indeed are the central questions.
It is clear that the pilots expected all physical obstacles to be in the helicopter database and that the helicopter warning systems would inform them if they were in any danger. This expectation is probably the reason why the captain's reaction to the winch operator's warning was so casual.
 

Pabilito

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My own view is that these indeed are the central questions.
It is clear that the pilots expected all physical obstacles to be in the helicopter database and that the helicopter warning systems would inform them if they were in any danger. This expectation is probably the reason why the captain's reaction to the winch operator's warning was so casual.
You’re probably correct,. over reliance and dependence on new technology appears to have superseded reliance on basic aviation principles such as keeping a look out the window to see what obstacles might be ahead.
 

Orbit v2

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You’re probably correct,. over reliance and dependence on new technology appears to have superseded reliance on basic aviation principles such as keeping a look out the window to see what obstacles might be ahead.
Looking out the window? It was dark and there was no street lights.

I think it may come down to how much attention they could or were able to pay to the charts and the extent they would have known that the onboard systems were inaccurate.
 

Pabilito

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Looking out the window? It was dark and there was no street lights.

I think it may come down to how much attention they could or were able to pay to the charts and the extent they would have known that the onboard systems were inaccurate.
Winch Operator Paul Ormsby was looking out the window with his night vision FLIR (Forward Looking Infra Red) and saw Black Rock Island dead ahead with his own eyes.
 

Orbit v2

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Winch Operator Paul Ormsby was looking out the window with his night vision FLIR (Forward Looking Infra Red) and saw Black Rock Island dead ahead with his own eyes.
He wasn't looking out the window. He was looking at the display directly in front of him which showed the EO/IR.
 

Pabilito

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He wasn't looking out the window. He was looking at the display directly in front of him which showed the EO/IR.
He was looking at the Island dead ahead of them. and he warned the captain about that.. he specifically said an "Island dead ahead" .. and he was dead right wasn't he?.. He didn't say "there's an "EO/IR display dead ahead" did he?

You're obsessed with the report which you continually defer to.

EO/IR is a combined camera system which combines both an IR camera with a conventional low light Electo Optical (EO) camera. Given that the conditions that night were far darker than dusk light levels, only the Forward Looking IR camera would have been in use in those circumstances beyond the capability of the EO camera. FLIR is the generic aviation term, presumably because Forward Looking (FL) is the normal direction of travel using (IR) hence the term FLIR

From The Coast Guard’s bulletin about the Sikorsky S92 Helicopter:

http://www.dttas.ie/sites/default/files/publications/maritime/english/irish-coast-guard-publications/ircgchcsikorskys92-0.PDF

“Forward Looking Infra-Red (FLIR) enables aircrew to detect, identify and search for missing persons or vessels”
 
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Orbit v2

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He was looking at the Island dead ahead of them. and he warned the captain about that.. he specifically said an "Island dead ahead" .. and he was dead right wasn't he?.. He didn't say "there's an "EO/IR display dead ahead" did he?
:confused2:
You're obsessed with the report which you continually defer to.
The report is the only thing we have that begins to explain what happened. You should pay more attention to it.
 

Pabilito

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:confused2:

The report is the only thing we have that begins to explain what happened. You should pay more attention to it.
No, the Report that you defer to is just a summary of the collective opinions of some experts probably every bit as confused by the accident as you and I, yes they have a more information available to them (which we are not privy to) but not a lot really so they are really just guessing what happened just as we are doing here.. I don’t understand on what grounds you take their opinions as absolute gospel?

We also have the ATC voice recordings plus the discovery of the life jackets and helmets of the winchmen since the report found south east of the accident whereas the “experts” searched mainly northwards which would explain why they didn’t find them.

Anyway there’s no disputing that Winch Operator Paul Ormsby did see Blackrock Island with his own eyes on the FLIR display and he warned the captain that the Island was dead ahead of their flight path however there was no discernable change in course or altitude of the helicopter during the 10 second time period between his warning and the helicopter’s impact with Blackrock Island during which time they covered about 600 meters distance..

As a recent poster pointed out here, the captain’s response to the warning of an Island dead ahead of the flightpath was casual.. the Island didn’t show up on her virtual reality display so seems she had absolute faith in new technology virtual navigation systems rather than conventional dependence on real time human eye sight,
 
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Dedogs

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No, the Report that you defer to is just a summary of the collective opinions of some experts probably every bit as confused by the accident as you and I, yes they have a more information available to them (which we are not privy to) but not a lot really so they are really just guessing what happened just as we are doing here.. I don’t understand on what grounds you take their opinions as absolute gospel?

We also have the ATC voice recordings plus the discovery of the life jackets and helmets of the winchmen since the report found south east of the accident whereas the “experts” searched mainly northwards which would explain why they didn’t find them.

Anyway there’s no disputing that Winch Operator Paul Ormsby did see Blackrock Island with his own eyes on the FLIR display and he warned the captain that the Island was dead ahead of their flight path however there was no discernable change in course or altitude of the helicopter during the 10 second time period between his warning and the helicopter’s impact with Blackrock Island during which time they covered about 600 meters distance..

As a recent poster pointed out here, the captain’s response to the warning of an Island dead ahead of the flightpath was casual.. the Island didn’t show up on her virtual reality display so seems she had absolute faith in new technology virtual navigation systems rather than conventional dependence on real time human eye sight,
100 % mate.... if it was a man flyin and the woman was winch operater the report would of been out now sayin pilot error and all the feminists would be complainin that the pilot wouldnt lissen to a woman!!!!!
 

cozzy121

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You’re probably correct,. over reliance and dependence on new technology appears to have superseded reliance on basic aviation principles such as keeping a look out the window to see what obstacles might be ahead.
Is it your belief that they were flying a slow moving biplane?
 

Nebuchadnezzar

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He was looking at the Island dead ahead of them. and he warned the captain about that.. he specifically said an "Island dead ahead" .. and he was dead right wasn't he?.. He didn't say "there's an "EO/IR display dead ahead" did he?

You're obsessed with the report which you continually defer to.

EO/IR is a combined camera system which combines both an IR camera with a conventional low light Electo Optical (EO) camera. Given that the conditions that night were far darker than dusk light levels, only the Forward Looking IR camera would have been in use in those circumstances beyond the capability of the EO camera. FLIR is the generic aviation term, presumably because Forward Looking (FL) is the normal direction of travel using (IR) hence the term FLIR

From The Coast Guard’s bulletin about the Sikorsky S92 Helicopter:

http://www.dttas.ie/sites/default/files/publications/maritime/english/irish-coast-guard-publications/ircgchcsikorskys92-0.PDF

“Forward Looking Infra-Red (FLIR) enables aircrew to detect, identify and search for missing persons or vessels”
he specifically said an "Island dead ahead"
Factually incorrect. That is not what he specifically said. Even as paraphrase it’s wrong.

This is what he specifically said...

K...looking at an island just in, directly ahead of us now guys, you want to come right [Commander’s Name]
This sentence, including the pause after the initial “K”, took nearly 4 seconds from start to finish. It is significantly different from the clear concise phrase that you incorrectly claim was used.
 


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