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Collins arrogance and nativity cost him his life?


Clanrickard

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Why would his birth cost him his life?
 

Rocky

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I don't think any of that is particuarly new.

It does of course provide former evidence that the argument that Collins was killed by the Irish Free State Army is nonsense, but anyone with half a brian wouldn't have believed that anyway.
 

PetevonPete

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Can an admin sort the spell check mess up in the title.

It would seem from the report that Collins had little knowledge of how to operate in hostile territory during a guerrilla war – also if the document was for internal IRA use it would point to the Free Staters actually using explosive rifle bullets in contravention of the (I know it's a sick concept) “rules of war” - basically the ambush seems to have been a job well done and glory to the boys involved.
 

Desperate Dan

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Sure Collins was a grand lad sure he won the war of independence on his ralliegh bike by himself. Sure couldn't we do with a strapping lad like that now, if he was here would Enda move over.
 

Rocky

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It would seem from the report that Collins had little knowledge of how to operate in hostile territory during a guerrilla war
I don't think anyone would argue against that. Collins was an organiser. He was magnificent in a backroom planning and organising attacks, but no he had no fighting in a guerrilla warfare attack. There's also rumours he had a few pints in him when that ambush started and that might also help explain his massive error of moving away from cover.
 

berberie

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Umm if we are going to talk about Michael's arrogance then perhaps we should metion Dev's choice to send him to London when the man had a price on his head. Dev knew that the British government would not grant his requests so by sending others to do his dirty work effectively signed Collin's death warrant.

When the negotiators came back with the best offer it was possible to accept at the time (which Dev knew before he sent the delegation), it was very easy for Dev to throw it out and look like a hero to the hardliners thus leading to the War of Independence!

Ps at least when Collins was Minister for Finance he managed to have money in the coffers even though the only country which recognised our gov at the time was Russia!!! Perhaps our present government could learn a lesson or two from the Big Man. petunia ;)
 

Schomberg

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I'll probably have stripes torn out of me here, but where I'm originally from (west cork), it was considered 'common knowledge" that Collins was well jarred up before he was shot... can't have been a good combo with fighting a gun battle...
 

niropiro

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Collins died because the driver obeyed his order to stop and fight.
The C-in-C had been drinking for most of the day - he had stopped in pubs along the way to talk with Anti-Treaty IRA men about a possible Truce - so when ambush was sprung, he overruled Emmet Dalton who shouted 'Drive like hell' and said 'No. We'll fight them.'

The idea of Rommel or Eisenhower or Patton leaping out of a car to fire at the enemy is ludicrous.

But that is what Collins as C-in-C of the National Army did.
He was an amateur.

The driver was not his usual man who instead would have known Collins' character and would have floored the gas and maybe a few miles down the road would have turned around and asked 'What was that Mick?'
Collins and his men lay prone behind the ditch and fired back at the men up on the hillside.
The armored car machine gunner had jammed his weapon and could only fire single shots like a rifle which meant that the IRA could continued their fire and were not forced to withdraw.
It was evening so it was starting to darken when the ambushers decided to call it a day.
Collins needlessly exposed himself by rising to fire his rifle, then moved to the cover of the armored car to continue firing and then moved out into the open to fire again from a standing position.
That is when he was caught in the back of the head by a lucky/unlucky shot.

A man called Sonny O'Neill is believed to have been most likely candidate for Collins' assassin.

He claims he saw a tall man in uniform standing up firing his rifle, fired at him and saw him fall.

'Explosive' bullet is relative.

Rifle bullets at the time of Civil War were designed for trench warfare conditions where a mass of men charged at an enemy trench and the defenders needed to stop them quickly - so metal jacketed rounds like the .303 round used in the Lee Enfield was designed to have terrific penetrating power so the bullet could go through two or more men without much distorting or fragmentation. A victim of a .303 in the torso therefore would have a small entrance wound and only a slightly larger exit wound if the bullet did not strike bone. Only if the bullet struck bone at high velocity would it shatter into pieces or mangle and create a fisted sized exit hole in the body.

A layman who saw a large exit wound in a human body might be lead mistakenly to believe an 'explosive' bullet was responsible.

It was common for soldiers to cut an 'x' shape in the tip of a bullet cutting through the metal jacket so that when the bullet strikes the human body - instead of passing through relatively intact, it opens up like the petals of a flowers and creates a much larger shredded wound that is much more likely to be fatal.

Unlike a popular Hollywood movies - a bullet does not lift a man into the air and throw him down.
In fact a man can be hit dozens of times yet still be able to stand and fire his weapon - if he has not suffered an immediately incapacitating injury.
A 'dum-dum' is more likely to create massive injury to the chest or abdomen that is much more likely to incapacitate the victim instantly than a standard bullet.

Some specialized bullets had a small explosive charge or had a hole drilled in the tip, a tiny drop of mercury placed inside before the tip was replaced. The mercury bullet works on the principle that there is a massive deceleration on the bullet causing the mercury drop to be hurled forward like the passenger of a car without a seat belt and rip the bullet apart. A mercury bullet could literally decapitate a human being.

However a jacketed bullet that hasn't been modified can still fragment into pieces and create an unusually large wound.

Other bullets have soft-noses - the metal jacket does not cover the nose of the round so that it mangled when it strikes the human body - soft nose bullets are often used in hunting deer.

However a standard jacketed bullet that strikes the human skull like the fatal shot that struck Collins would create huge damage even though it was not 'explosive.' The air pocket carried ahead of the bullet and the pressure on the brain tissue would create enough force to tear the skull apart. A human skull would shatter like a boiled egg, with large sections of skull hanging open attached by flaps of scalp.
 
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What the Fug

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I'll probably have stripes torn out of me here, but where I'm originally from (west cork), it was considered 'common knowledge" that Collins was well jarred up before he was shot... can't have been a good combo with fighting a gun battle...
Will back you up on that one, I heard that as well when young .
 

ellie08

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Umm if we are going to talk about Michael's arrogance then perhaps we should metion Dev's choice to send him to London when the man had a price on his head. Dev knew that the British government would not grant his requests so by sending others to do his dirty work effectively signed Collin's death warrant.

When the negotiators came back with the best offer it was possible to accept at the time (which Dev knew before he sent the delegation), it was very easy for Dev to throw it out and look like a hero to the hardliners thus leading to the War of Independence!

Ps at least when Collins was Minister for Finance he managed to have money in the coffers even though the only country which recognised our gov at the time was Russia!!! Perhaps our present government could learn a lesson or two from the Big Man. petunia ;)
+1. He was a pragmatist unlike that ape talking about people dancing at the crossroads, banning books and letting the RCC rule over our country in a way that any mad mullahs would be jealous of.
 
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+1. He was a pragmatist unlike that ape talking about people dancing at the crossroads, banning books and letting the RCC rule over our country in a way that any mad mullahs would be jealous of.
Calling somone an ape because you disagree with them makes you what exactly ?
 

devnull

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...
The idea of Rommel or Eisenhower or Patton leaping out of a car to fire at the enemy is ludicrous.
...
I can imagine Rommel doing it.
His habit of taking personal command of frontline units had his staff perpetually worried that he'd get himself killed.
It was also a less than ideal way to command an entire army group.
 

berberie

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+1. He was a pragmatist unlike that ape talking about people dancing at the crossroads, banning books and letting the RCC rule over our country in a way that any mad mullahs would be jealous of.
Thank your for your vote of confidence Ellie, much appreciated, but I have to agree with Odie on one point, the remark about the ape....... not because I think you were wrong to utilise your freedom of speech and offer your opinion. Simply because in my belief an ape is in fact a very intelligent animal and as such I think any worthwhile gorilla would be insulted by being compaired to Dev ;););)
 

ellie08

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Thank your for your vote of confidence Ellie, much appreciated, but I have to agree with Odie on one point, the remark about the ape....... not because I think you were wrong to utilise your freedom of speech and offer your opinion. Simply because in my belief an ape is in fact a very intelligent animal and as such I think any worthwhile gorilla would be insulted by being compaired to Dev ;););)
How right you are. ;)
 

ne0ica

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How sad that discussions about Irish history routinely turns into slander about De Valera. Its a rather simplified lazy interpretation of Irish history. Divorce, contraception and abortion were already illegal in Ireland before Dev took power and were illegal under British law in Ireland. In the 1860's divorce was legalised in England but not Ireland due to opposition from the established Protestant Church of Ireland. The Catholic church already controlled the school and hospitals under British rule. De Valera inherited all of this. He did not create it. DeV Catholicism was a reflection of overall society and a continuation from the previous CnaG government. Ireland was an argircultural country with wide scale poverty traumatised by a brutal colonisation. Ireland did not become liberalised until the 1960's with economic prosperity and fully embraced modernity in the 90's with economic boom. DeValera, Cosgrave and post independence leaders till Lemass did not impose conservative Catholicism on Ireland.
 

Desperate Dan

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It was claimed that Jock McPeak one of Collins men shot him with pistol in the back of his head, he later deserted the Free state army with an amoured car and joined the Republican side. If Collins was shot with 303 rifle in the back of the head and as was posted today the head explodes how come he was lying in state in an open coffin.
 
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