Collins: Would he be a member of Fianna Fail

Trojanhorse

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I was just thinking about this at the weekend. i think Collins had he lived would have join FF upon it formation. I'll really don't think he's really an FG icon at all. Had he not gone to London to negotiate the treaty he probably would have been on the anti-treaty side.

So what do FFer's on Politics.ie think?
Is he really ours and should we reclaim him?
 


Simbo67

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Good God, the by-election results must be really getting to you!
I was at a Michael Collins commeration last week (a very wonderful evening) and a documentary that they showed would destroy any wishful thinking that you might have about Collins being an irregular.
 

jmcc

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Simbo67 said:
Good God, the by-election results must be really getting to you!
I was at a Michael Collins commeration last week (a very wonderful evening) and a documentary that they showed would destroy any wishful thinking that you might have about Collins being an irregular.
Probably an Eoghan Harris/Dessie O'Malley documentary? :)

Things would have been very different had Collins lived and DeValera would certainly not have had the impact on the Irish state that he had. And we would not have had that fscking Peig sh1te to put up with for the Leaving Cert (when I did it) and the Irish language would probably be healthier today.

Regards...jmcc
 

agora

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Who knows, if Dev hadn't been around to mess things up (by the standards of the time he should have been shot for his behaviour, people were for much less), Collins might even have brought us to a United Ireland. Blinkered republicans always go on about Collins being a traitor, but if he had lived he probably would have had a better chance of building relations with the North up to the point of unity than Dev, who in concrete terms never did anything for the cause of unity.
 

Collinsite

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For God's sake,how do people come up with such theories?When Dev and Collins split over the treaty Irish politics was changed thereafter.

Dev may have eventually come around to Collins way of thinking by the time he set up FF,but that alone would hardly prompt Collins to switch over and join a party that came from people who believed he was a traitor and who had actively tried to assasinate him.Had Collins lived,I do believe that the Civil war wouldn't have been as bitter and that Dev would have either stayed with SF, founded a less successful party than FF or he perhaps would have ended up joining C na nG under the only man who could unite the two factions -Collins
 

rockofcashel

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Mick Collins would most likely be a member of the only party he was ever a member of

Sinn Fein


Lets compare him to modern day Sinn Fein leaders....

Highly successful IRA leader ... a la Martin Mc Guiness

Chief negotiator for a United Ireland .... a la Martin Mc Guinness

Argued for a tactical use of armed strategy ... a la Martin Mc Guinness

Was a successful Minister (Finance) ..... a la Martin Mc Guiness (Education)

Never gave up the ultimate goal of a United Ireland .... a la Martin Mc Guiness

Was deferential to a more charismatic politician (Dev) ... a la Martin Mc Guiness (with both having more respect amongst the armed wings of their respective movements)


Mick Collins - Once a Shinner, always a Shinner.......

As for the tentative links with FG that FG seem delighted to claim, can some FG explain what Collins would think of

1. John Bruton describing the visit of Prince Charles as the happiest day of his life (Collins would've wanted to shoot him)

or

2. Gay Mitchells condemnation of the IRA, when Collins was not only the head of intelligence of the IRA, but was a member of the more secretive, and violent IRB
 

badinage

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Lets compare him to modern day Sinn Fein leaders....
Highly successful IRA leader ... a la Martin Mc Guiness
Chief negotiator for a United Ireland .... a la Martin Mc Guinness
Argued for a tactical use of armed strategy ... a la Martin Mc Guinness
Was a successful Minister (Finance) ..... a la Martin Mc Guiness (Education)
Never gave up the ultimate goal of a United Ireland .... a la Martin Mc Guiness
Was deferential to a more charismatic politician (Dev) ... a la Martin Mc Guiness (with both having more respect amongst the armed wings of their respective movements)
Mick Collins - Once a Shinner, always a Shinner.......
All true, except that Collins said he would support the Treaty if the electorate voted for it, and reject it if the electorate voted against it. I'd imagine Martin McGuinness wouldn't have given much thought to what percentage of the population was for or against the Treaty, and would have sided with the Irregulars on principle grounds

That's why you can't compare the Sinn Fein of the Troubles with the Sinn Fein of 1905-1922: the former didn't care about the will of the People whereas the latter (arguably) did.
 

rockofcashel

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badinage said:
Lets compare him to modern day Sinn Fein leaders....
Highly successful IRA leader ... a la Martin Mc Guiness
Chief negotiator for a United Ireland .... a la Martin Mc Guinness
Argued for a tactical use of armed strategy ... a la Martin Mc Guinness
Was a successful Minister (Finance) ..... a la Martin Mc Guiness (Education)
Never gave up the ultimate goal of a United Ireland .... a la Martin Mc Guiness
Was deferential to a more charismatic politician (Dev) ... a la Martin Mc Guiness (with both having more respect amongst the armed wings of their respective movements)
Mick Collins - Once a Shinner, always a Shinner.......
All true, except that Collins said he would support the Treaty if the electorate voted for it, and reject it if the electorate voted against it. I'd imagine Martin McGuinness wouldn't have given much thought to what percentage of the population was for or against the Treaty, and would have sided with the Irregulars on principle grounds

That's why you can't compare the Sinn Fein of the Troubles with the Sinn Fein of 1905-1922: the latter didn't care about the will of the People whereas the former (arguably) did.

Ah but Badinage,

Mc Guiness has accepted the principle of consent as outlined in the GFA, which is more more that Collins accepted in the Treaty election. Therefore Mc Guiness and Collins can still favourably be compared can they not.

I assume in your second paragraph that you do not understand or are mistaken in your use of the terms former and latter.

What do you mean by arguably ?
 

Collinsite

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Collins dies in 1922,none of us know exactly what would have happened had he lived.All we can go on are FACTS.

Collins negotiated our first treaty of independence(incidently he didn't attempt to shoot the British negotiaters cashel).He became head of Government of our first,albeit provissional, internationally recognised state.He died fighting for that state and his descendents in Cuman na nGheadeal and Fine Gael have continually been the most ardent defender of this state whether in Government or in opposition.Perhaps not as outwardly nationalistic as Collins but believing in his principles nontheless.


Collins and Dev were to far apart for anyone to think he'd have ended up in Fianna Fail.Collins had tried his damndest to accomodate more extreme republicans in the pact election of 1922.They never showed the same accomodation back.That is why I think by the time Collins died the anti-treatyites would have been further down his list of priorities.

As for the 'tentative' link to FG.Perhaps Collins would have stayed a SF member.Perhaps SF would be the FG of today?Maybe the extremists would have been forced out had Collins lived?The truth is we don't know what may or may not have happened.

It is rich thought hat people who for so long called Michael Collins a traitor and frowned upon his legacy are now tripping over themselves to brazenly claim him as their own.
 

badinage

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I assume in your second paragraph that you do not understand or are mistaken in your use of the terms former and latter.
yeah I switched them around there

What do you mean by arguably ?
I mean that the 1916 Rising obviously ignored the majority will of the electorate and although Sinn Fein had no involvement in it, its surviving leaders went on to become the leaders of Sinn Fein after their release/escape. Sinn Fein won, I believe, 47% of the vote in November 1918, whereas the IPP won 22% and Unionists won 28% (though SF won 73 of 124 seats due to 'first past the post').

Furthermore, I believe deValera and at least one other senior SF member (I think Griffith) specifically promised that in the 1918 election campaign that they would not carry out a 'campaign of murder'. Now maybe what they sectretly meant is that they would carry out a campaign of 'violence against legitimate targets', but I think its fair to say the electorate would have taken their words to mean that they weren't going to let the IRA start shooting Catholic policemen, robbing Catholic civilians, burning the houses of wealthy Protestants, killing Protestant civilians, and smashing up the printing presses of newspapers whose political analysis they don't agree with.

but they did win a majority of seats in 1918, and again in 1922, hence you can say they "arguably" respected majority will. The majority of them did in 1922 anyway, when they remained in the Dail when a minority walked out.
 

Gael

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rockofcashel said:
Gael said:
Who's to say SF would still exist either?


Ummmm ... we do Gael

What a pointless post
No. This thread discusses a hypothetical point( The big MC is in fact dead in case you didn't notice. Quite a while in fact)
Therefore my theorising that if he'd lived, SF might not now exist, is just as valid a point as you or anyone else here has made.
At least I'm open to the idea that if you choose to change one element of history for the sake of argument, you have to be prepared to change them all.
You, on the other hand are just looking for another excuse to harp on about how great SF are, whereas most of us actually want to have an intelligent and hopefully objective discussion. If there are any pointless posts, you're not one to be pointing fingers.
 

Collinsite

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it's a very good point.As I've said earlier,SF could even have been the FG of today.You never know how the three parties that originate in Sf would have developed had Collins lived or even if they would have developed.
 

Gael

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Exactly Collinsite. And the fact is that this thread was not really set up to objectively discuss a hypothetical situation. It was set up to help FFers feel good about themselves after the by-election. Now SF are in on the same game.
They're both like spoilt babies fighting over a rattle. If Collins could see either of yez he'd probably be laughing.
 

smiffy

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I'd say he'd be in Fine Gael. And what's more, he'd be in the extreme, Shinner-hating, Gay Mitchell, New Consensus wing of Fine Gael. You're all forgetting that it's the converts who end up the most fanatical of all (which is probably intensified when the people you used to be buddies with spend their time trying to kill you).

Some examples:









Unfortunately, I can't find a picture of Eoghan Harris, so this will have to do as a placeholder
 

CJH

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This is a complete bullsh1t thread. It's quite possible that had he lived, Collins would have attempted to impose a military dictatorship under his control. Certainly his former colleagues were wary of him before he died.

Thing is, we don't know. So let's not have a row about it.
 


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