Collins: Would he be a member of Fianna Fail

Bogwarrior

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 3, 2004
Messages
322
rockofcashel said:
So are we all agreed.

Collins was a Shinner, and so far amongst all the posts, theres yet to be one decent rebuttal of the idea that he would probably be a Shinner today.

Actually let me be honest. I dont give a shite. What I do find funny though is the amount of different histories of Ireland that can be written in the space of two hours.

Also just on a certain point. For FG people. On the day that Gay Mitchell was elected, his doughter proudly wore a t shirt emblazoned with Collins picture.

How many honest FGers beleive that a man of the gun like Collins would have anything more than utter contempt for such a sorry excuse for a west brit even. I refuse to call him an Irishman. Or like I said before, what would Collins have made of the quintessential FGer of recent times, Mr Bruton.

personally from my own reading of the life and times of Mick Collins, he wouldn't have pissed on the abovementioned two men if they were on fire.

As for Brian Hayes, he'd probably have run for petrol
Signing away Irish Sovereignty, collaborating with Brits, , turning against his former comrades, a classic poacher turned gamekeeper....yeah, I agree he'd be a Sinner.
 


jmcc

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 12, 2004
Messages
45,137
Bogwarrior said:
Signing away Irish Sovereignty, collaborating with Brits, , turning against his former comrades, a classic poacher turned gamekeeper....yeah, I agree he'd be a Sinner.
I wonder if he'd have been interested in joining the PDs? ;)

Regards...jmcc
 

Collinsite

Member
Joined
Dec 26, 2003
Messages
44
Rockofcashel really surprises me with such an ill thought out post as that one.Just because a man shares a different set of values than your party does not make him any less Irish than the next.I'm not even going to get myself angry over what you've written their as I'm sure it was a temporary moment of frustration.

From what I've read of Collins he wasn't the sort of man who would tolerate such wanton talk as that in the first place
 

Gladstone

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 10, 2005
Messages
420
rockofcashel said:
Mick Collins would most likely be a member of the only party he was ever a member of

Sinn Fein


Lets compare him to modern day Sinn Fein leaders....

Highly successful IRA leader ... a la Martin Mc Guiness

Chief negotiator for a United Ireland .... a la Martin Mc Guinness

Argued for a tactical use of armed strategy ... a la Martin Mc Guinness

Was a successful Minister (Finance) ..... a la Martin Mc Guiness (Education)

Never gave up the ultimate goal of a United Ireland .... a la Martin Mc Guiness

Was deferential to a more charismatic politician (Dev) ... a la Martin Mc Guiness (with both having more respect amongst the armed wings of their respective movements)


Mick Collins - Once a Shinner, always a Shinner.......

As for the tentative links with FG that FG seem delighted to claim, can some FG explain what Collins would think of

1. John Bruton describing the visit of Prince Charles as the happiest day of his life (Collins would've wanted to shoot him)

or

2. Gay Mitchells condemnation of the IRA, when Collins was not only the head of intelligence of the IRA, but was a member of the more secretive, and violent IRB
I doubt he would be in a party full of people that fundamentally disagreed with the most important decision he ever made and called him a trator!

Lets not soil the memory of one of our founding fathers by looking at him through a partisan spec
 

Rabscallion

Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2005
Messages
7
Simbo67 said:
Good God, the by-election results must be really getting to you!
I was at a Michael Collins commeration last week (a very wonderful evening) and a documentary that they showed would destroy any wishful thinking that you might have about Collins being an irregular.
He certainly wasn;t a unionist like you though.
 

Rabscallion

Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2005
Messages
7
agora said:
Who knows, if Dev hadn't been around to mess things up (by the standards of the time he should have been shot for his behaviour, people were for much less), Collins might even have brought us to a United Ireland. Blinkered republicans always go on about Collins being a traitor, but if he had lived he probably would have had a better chance of building relations with the North up to the point of unity than Dev, who in concrete terms never did anything for the cause of unity.
it is widely known that Collins was in favour of supporting paramilitarism in the North in order to acheive freedom at the time. I think it would of been Collins coming around to the DeV view rather than otherwise, as CnaG was infiltrated by IPPers and would of had little in common with Collins' republicanism.
 

rockofcashel

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 23, 2005
Messages
8,200
Website
www.sinnfein.ie
Collinsite said:
Rockofcashel really surprises me with such an ill thought out post as that one.Just because a man shares a different set of values than your party does not make him any less Irish than the next.I'm not even going to get myself angry over what you've written their as I'm sure it was a temporary moment of frustration.

From what I've read of Collins he wasn't the sort of man who would tolerate such wanton talk as that in the first place
Actually Collinsite you have a great capacity for forgiveness. I commend you for that. It is a virtue.

My piece wasn't ill thought out. The first section regarding who Mick Collins might be a member of if he were alive today is completely irrlevant because its based on a hypothesis, and since the party structure of today bears no resemblance to the structure of Collins time, its impossible to make an even educated guess.

The only relevant party still around today that was there in Collins time was Sinn Fein. (from which eventually spawned CnG and eventually FG, and FF) The Labour party were also around but they never claimed Collins in any shape or form.

But even though SF were around, it might sound strange to some, but at the start of the war of independence, where Collins came to prominence (he was only a bit player in '16), SF were actually against armed conflict to remove the British.

If you read Dan Breens book, you will realise that the First Dail in 1919 (essentially Sinn Fein as the Unionists didnt show up) was held on the same day as Soloheadbeg. If you also go through the history, that Dail condemned Soloheadbeg. Breen had a measure of contempt for SF at the time, because they weren't violent enough. He was mad for action after missing '16. This is the side that Collins was on. The fighting side. he had no time for politics really, he was proud to say that first and foremost he wanted violence.

So I believe that in all honesty if he were alive today, theres a good chance he wouldn't be bothered with politics at all, or if he was, he'd probably be an anti-political IRA man, even possibly the RIRA. Beat that synopsis lads.

As for the rest of my post Collins, I have the greatest respect for people of a different political view to myself, on one condidtion. That they recognise that my opinion is valid also. While I have the height of respect for the vast majority of FG'ers. (Spent this afternoon at a meeting chaired by one, with four more FG county councillors in attendence) Mssrs Mitchell, Hayes and Bruton are the sort of slithery careerist West Brits that this country should have got rid of years ago. I'm sorry if you dont agree, your entitled to your opinion too.
 

Rocky

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 9, 2004
Messages
8,596
Rock it has to be remember that by the time of Collins died he was against violence, clearly shown by his support of the treaty and his huge attempts to prevent civil war, and ready to go down peaceful routes. He believed that violence had achieved all that it could and that it was now time for peace.
 

rockofcashel

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 23, 2005
Messages
8,200
Website
www.sinnfein.ie
Rocky said:
Rock it has to be remember that by the time of Collins died he was against violence, clearly shown by his support of the treaty and his huge attempts to prevent civil war, and ready to go down peaceful routes. He believed that violence had achieved all that it could and that it was now time for peace.
Theres no evidence whatsoever Rocky that he was against violence. He merely accepted the Treaty as it was the will of the people at that time, but at its an important but, he never ruled out a return to violence if he felt the treaty was not going to eventually deliver a United republic. Thats why Rocky he called it the "stepping stone". Even you cannot argue that.

Would it not in this context make the Treaty comparable to the GFA, and having the IRA stand down tommorow, to see if the GFA could bring about a United Ireland by consent. But if that didnt happen, resume a military campaign to bring it about some time in the future. the GFA is only an addition to the Treaty.
 

thegeneral

Active member
Joined
Apr 30, 2004
Messages
156
Rocky said:
Cian that is complete bullshit. Michael Collins did not cause the Civil war. The irregulars did when they took over the four courts and began arming themselves all over the country. They also Murdered Henry Wilson and Kidnapped General O'Connell. Michael Collins had no choice, but to attack the four courts because if he didn't the British would have sent men into Ireland to do it. Collins went to extreme measures to prevent the civil war which included the Collins-De Valera pact.

Collins had to respond to the actions of the Irregulars or else the country would have fallen into complete anarchy or the British would have invaded the country
Now hold on a second, put away the Neil Jordan/ Tim Pat Coogan hagiography and think for a second. Recent evidence has shown that the order to murder Henry Wison came from Collins himself, who was annoyed at the pogroms going on in the north rthat were supported by Wilson as the military attache to Stormont and arch unionist himself. That the murder of Wison was used as the excuse to shell the Four Courts shows something of the ruthlessness of this guy.

You also refer to the Collins/DeValera pact that as you say was an attempt to keep the party together and not lead to bitter divisions. If Collins was so committed to this Rocky why did he repudiate the pact in the week leading to the election? The decision of the Treaty delegation to not even communicate their decision with the President of the Republic can also be considered an act of ruthlessness on the part of Collins and Griffith who dominated the delegation and a possible attempt at taking power for himself something which his repudiation of the electoral pact certainly hints at.

On another point Collins' support for IRA actions in border areas of the north during the civil war and his advocation of the Treaty as a stepping stone argument do not hold with the subsequent actions of CnaG after the Home Rulers reverse takeover of the party. Given his emotive speeches on the subject of national unity during the treaty debates I think the subsequent actions of the Cosgrave government to the boundary Commision would have caused him some angst.

Consider as well the Army Mutiny the chief conspirators of which were Collins associates and were complaining over the apparent neglect of his stepping stone argument and also the replacement of Old IRA people with former British Army soldiers. Had Collins been alive what would his position have been to these former associates? We don't know of course but its naive to assume one option over another.

I don't believe Collins would have been in Fianna Fáil certainly not a Fianna Fáil under De Valera. David Andrews commented on this some years ago but he was being mischievious. I don't believe he would have been a member of Cumann na Gaedhal either certainly not after the Home Rulers reverse takeover. I believe he would have been in a different party a kind of republican Fine Gael party if he had survived the Civil war.
 

Gladstone

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 10, 2005
Messages
420
thegeneral said:
Rocky said:
Cian that is complete bullshit. Michael Collins did not cause the Civil war. The irregulars did when they took over the four courts and began arming themselves all over the country. They also Murdered Henry Wilson and Kidnapped General O'Connell. Michael Collins had no choice, but to attack the four courts because if he didn't the British would have sent men into Ireland to do it. Collins went to extreme measures to prevent the civil war which included the Collins-De Valera pact.

Collins had to respond to the actions of the Irregulars or else the country would have fallen into complete anarchy or the British would have invaded the country
Now hold on a second, put away the Neil Jordan/ Tim Pat Coogan hagiography and think for a second. Recent evidence has shown that the order to murder Henry Wison came from Collins himself, who was annoyed at the pogroms going on in the north rthat were supported by Wilson as the military attache to Stormont and arch unionist himself. That the murder of Wison was used as the excuse to shell the Four Courts shows something of the ruthlessness of this guy.

You also refer to the Collins/DeValera pact that as you say was an attempt to keep the party together and not lead to bitter divisions. If Collins was so committed to this Rocky why did he repudiate the pact in the week leading to the election? The decision of the Treaty delegation to not even communicate their decision with the President of the Republic can also be considered an act of ruthlessness on the part of Collins and Griffith who dominated the delegation and a possible attempt at taking power for himself something which his repudiation of the electoral pact certainly hints at.

On another point Collins' support for IRA actions in border areas of the north during the civil war and his advocation of the Treaty as a stepping stone argument do not hold with the subsequent actions of CnaG after the Home Rulers reverse takeover of the party. Given his emotive speeches on the subject of national unity during the treaty debates I think the subsequent actions of the Cosgrave government to the boundary Commision would have caused him some angst.

Consider as well the Army Mutiny the chief conspirators of which were Collins associates and were complaining over the apparent neglect of his stepping stone argument and also the replacement of Old IRA people with former British Army soldiers. Had Collins been alive what would his position have been to these former associates? We don't know of course but its naive to assume one option over another.

I don't believe Collins would have been in Fianna Fáil certainly not a Fianna Fáil under De Valera. David Andrews commented on this some years ago but he was being mischievious. I don't believe he would have been a member of Cumann na Gaedhal either certainly not after the Home Rulers reverse takeover. I believe he would have been in a different party a kind of republican Fine Gael party if he had survived the Civil war.
They didn't have to commuinicate anything to De Valera he made them ministers plenipotentiaries meaning they had the power to sign on their own decisions, it was no acccident he gave them that power either, cute ****er.
 

Collinsite

Member
Joined
Dec 26, 2003
Messages
44
Just one point to rock of cashel.You say that ''westbrits'' like Hayes and Bruton should have been shipped from this country a long time ago.

Yet you come from a party attempting to ''build an Ireland of equals''.Clearly there is no room in that ireland for people opposed to and prepared to speak out against Sinn Fein's politics.

Being in a democracy means you respect the rights of others to share diverging opinions
 

Trojanhorse

Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2005
Messages
93
Gladstone said:
thegeneral said:
Rocky said:
Cian that is complete bullshit. Michael Collins did not cause the Civil war. The irregulars did when they took over the four courts and began arming themselves all over the country. They also Murdered Henry Wilson and Kidnapped General O'Connell. Michael Collins had no choice, but to attack the four courts because if he didn't the British would have sent men into Ireland to do it. Collins went to extreme measures to prevent the civil war which included the Collins-De Valera pact.

Collins had to respond to the actions of the Irregulars or else the country would have fallen into complete anarchy or the British would have invaded the country
Now hold on a second, put away the Neil Jordan/ Tim Pat Coogan hagiography and think for a second. Recent evidence has shown that the order to murder Henry Wison came from Collins himself, who was annoyed at the pogroms going on in the north rthat were supported by Wilson as the military attache to Stormont and arch unionist himself. That the murder of Wison was used as the excuse to shell the Four Courts shows something of the ruthlessness of this guy.

You also refer to the Collins/DeValera pact that as you say was an attempt to keep the party together and not lead to bitter divisions. If Collins was so committed to this Rocky why did he repudiate the pact in the week leading to the election? The decision of the Treaty delegation to not even communicate their decision with the President of the Republic can also be considered an act of ruthlessness on the part of Collins and Griffith who dominated the delegation and a possible attempt at taking power for himself something which his repudiation of the electoral pact certainly hints at.

On another point Collins' support for IRA actions in border areas of the north during the civil war and his advocation of the Treaty as a stepping stone argument do not hold with the subsequent actions of CnaG after the Home Rulers reverse takeover of the party. Given his emotive speeches on the subject of national unity during the treaty debates I think the subsequent actions of the Cosgrave government to the boundary Commision would have caused him some angst.

Consider as well the Army Mutiny the chief conspirators of which were Collins associates and were complaining over the apparent neglect of his stepping stone argument and also the replacement of Old IRA people with former British Army soldiers. Had Collins been alive what would his position have been to these former associates? We don't know of course but its naive to assume one option over another.

I don't believe Collins would have been in Fianna Fáil certainly not a Fianna Fáil under De Valera. David Andrews commented on this some years ago but he was being mischievious. I don't believe he would have been a member of Cumann na Gaedhal either certainly not after the Home Rulers reverse takeover. I believe he would have been in a different party a kind of republican Fine Gael party if he had survived the Civil war.
They didn't have to commuinicate anything to De Valera he made them ministers plenipotentiaries meaning they had the power to sign on their own decisions, it was no acccident he gave them that power either, cute ****er.

your actual wrong when you say that they didn't have to communicate anything to DeV. there was a private government paper that stated before anything was signed in London he had to be bought back to the Cabinet for discussion FIRST before ANY treaty was signed. They delegation were allowed to go to London to negiotate a treaty but they didn't have full power to sign it. When it comes down to the question of way DeV himself didn't go thats quite clear he knew Lloyd George would only give him Dominion status with partition. L G could n't offer him anything else....so he sent a scapegoat...nice and convient...then he has the cheek to start a civil war...........
 

NGTR

Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2004
Messages
28
Website
www.freewebs.com
There has been so much crap written in this thread that I'm not going to bother my ass replying to it all, one point I would like to make was that the film 'Hang out your bightest colours' that Simbo67 referred to was produced by Welsh Nationalist Kenneth Griffiths-

That film along with the writings of Collins and most of his actions during his last months on this earth are the best way to analyse were he'd be today, none of this crap influenced by party political agenda fuelled by a romantic view thanks to Neil Jordan et al.

I admit to being a member fo Fine Gael and a proud one at that but my views on Collins come from actually looking at the facts as a historian
 

Rocky

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 9, 2004
Messages
8,596
First thing Collins actions in the North after the signing of the treaty is the one major area that I disagree with Collins on. So I'm not going to defend here there.

Second the Treaty delegation was given complete power to sign any treaty according to the terms given to the British. For that reason Lloyd George would not accept the reason that they had to go back to Ireland to discuss it with De Valera. There was an contradiction in their powers, in one hand they were told they could not sign anything without the cabinets approvable and on the other they were told they could made the final decision in London themselves. The delegation was worried that Lloyd George might be serious about starting the war again and knew that he would not accept the excuse that they had to go back to Ireland. For that reason they signed the treaty there and then. If De Valera had made it clear in the terms given to the British that they could not sign any treaty without cabinet support we would not be having this argument now.

Finally no one knows who ordered the killing of Wilson, I doubt it was Collins because all it did was put more pressure on him, however I'm not sure nor is anyone else here

I already dealt with why he broke the Collins-De Valera pact earlier and I’m not going to do it again.
 

Trojanhorse

Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2005
Messages
93
Rocky said:
First thing Collins actions in the North after the signing of the treaty is the one major area that I disagree with Collins actins. So I'm not going to defend here there.

Second the Treaty delegation was given complete power to sign any treaty according to the terms given to the British. For that reason Lloyd George would not accept the reason that they had to go back to Ireland to discuss it with De Valera. There was an contradiction in their powers, in one hand they were told they could not sign anything without the cabinets approvable and on the other they were told they could made the final decision in London themselves. The delegation was worried that Lloyd George might be serious about starting the war again and knew that he would not accept the excuse that they had to go back to Ireland. For that reason they signed the treaty there and then. If De Valera had made it cleared in the terms given to the British that they could not sign any treaty without cabinet support we would not be having this argument now.

Finally no one knows who ordered the killing of Wilson, I doubt it was Collins because all it did was put more pressure on him, however I'm not sure nor is anyone else here

I already dealt with why he broke the Collins-De Valera pact earlier and I’m not going to do it again.
Do I have to repeat myself again on this issue......the delegation did NOT have the right to sign the treaty WITHOUT full cabinet approval. this was laid out quite clear to Collins and co BEFORE they left for London in a Private government paper! The were put under considerable pressure by the British to sign because L G and co. used the old Roman tactic of divide and conquer hence he divided his enemy and forced them to buckle but at the end of the day the delegation were not meant to be signed. the power they had was to negiotate with the british to see what they could get. And that was all!
 

Rocky

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 9, 2004
Messages
8,596
This is from a website I found on the issue DeValera conferred upon them the title of delegates plenipotentiary, which was their written position, and implied that they had complete power to come to any agreements with the British That is a historical fact the Delegation were given complete powers to make any final decision. However as I said earlier they were also told to consul the cabinet on all final decisions. There was two docunments one which was given to the British saying they had complete power and one which was given to Collins and CO which said they didn't.
 

Gladstone

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 10, 2005
Messages
420
and the conclusion boys and girls?

Dev was a cute ****er who wanted someone else to bring back the bad news so he fudged their powers.
 

Rocky

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 9, 2004
Messages
8,596
Gladstone said:
and the conclusion boys and girls?

Dev was a cute ****er who wanted someone else to bring back the bad news so he fudged their powers.
Exactly
 

Harpey

Active member
Joined
Dec 1, 2004
Messages
100
General Collins was a Sinn Fein member. That party however is dead and that trying to imitate it and claim its legacy is worth little recognition and because of its extremism I doubt that it would have attracted any such notable politicains. Rather I believe that the nations party political system would have gradually orientated itself far more along European Lines, perhaps with a clearly definable centre right and centre left partys acting in contention with one another, along with smaller more extreme parties on either side.
Never the less, all we have is speculation. I can only say that he could only ever have been FG. The party would not exist were it not for his and Griffith's deaths. It is upon the legacy of dead men that FG is built. Foundations in the name and the ideals of either men is really what FG stands for, or at least for me and I am proud to say that.
The gradual and moderate approach along with the freedom that Griffith appealed for are the corner stone of FG. It is unplausable to presume that the political system could possible have even slightly resembled the current form if both visionaries had survived, had both or either had used their considerable influence to affect the shape of Irish politics. Just my contorted view. Pick holes in it all you want.
 


New Threads

Top Bottom