Collusion - The truth comes slowly

Belfastdan

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After todays Police Ombudsman's report on Loughinisland, and the suspicion over Greysteel collusion is no longer an unfounded allegation but a stated fact. However no one will be brought to account; we will never know how far up the chain of command this policy went, and it ends once and for all the argument that the British and their armed forces both military, police and intelligence services were holding the line. The fact is they were active, partial and willing participants in the conflict.
 


between the bridges

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There are 1500 unresolved murders, untouchables exist both sides of the fence and both sides of the border...
 

Barna

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After todays Police Ombudsman's report on Loughinisland, and the suspicion over Greysteel collusion is no longer an unfounded allegation but a stated fact. However no one will be brought to account; we will never know how far up the chain of command this policy went, and it ends once and for all the argument that the British and their armed forces both military, police and intelligence services were holding the line. The fact is they were active, partial and willing participants in the conflict.
Absolutely.
The question has to be asked as to why the establishment in Britain and in Ireland involved themselves in this type of behaviour.
We're starting to see in the republic exactly how corrupt our police force is.
Who knows what dark secrets they're hiding, how many murders, how many cover up's etc?
We know that the blueshirt government down here in 1974 closed down the 'investigation' into the Dublin/Monaghan bombings after 3 weeks and the brits won't release their files on that case.
 

Boy M5

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Absolutely.
The question has to be asked as to why the establishment in Britain and in Ireland involved themselves in this type of behaviour.
We're starting to see in the republic exactly how corrupt our police force is.
Who knows what dark secrets they're hiding, how many murders, how many cover up's etc?
We know that the blueshirt government down here in 1974 closed down the 'investigation' into the Dublin/Monaghan bombings after 3 weeks and the brits won't release their files on that case.
Yet Cosgrave will get a state funeral.
He failed the state, its people & justice.
Dreadful creature & shameful carryon.

Maybe people should go on the streets when his cortege goes past & turn their backs on it?


The UK won't release the RIC files from well before the war of Independence.
Having said that we'll probably find the truth about D-M from the Brits than from our own state.
 

sgtharper

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Absolutely.
The question has to be asked as to why the establishment in Britain and in Ireland involved themselves in this type of behaviour.
We're starting to see in the republic exactly how corrupt our police force is.
Who knows what dark secrets they're hiding, how many murders, how many cover up's etc?
We know that the blueshirt government down here in 1974 closed down the 'investigation' into the Dublin/Monaghan bombings after 3 weeks and the brits won't release their files on that case.
Sweet Mother of Christ, not another feckin' file-o-phile :roll:
 

Global Justice

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After todays Police Ombudsman's report on Loughinisland, and the suspicion over Greysteel collusion is no longer an unfounded allegation but a stated fact. However no one will be brought to account; we will never know how far up the chain of command this policy went, and it ends once and for all the argument that the British and their armed forces both military, police and intelligence services were holding the line. The fact is they were active, partial and willing participants in the conflict.
No-one should be surprised at the evils the British did in Ireland considering these facts:

https://twitter.com/crimesofbrits/with_replies
 

Marcella

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The British government and unionism are losing the fight to keep collusion secret. It is inevitable the truth will come out and tonight all across Britain and Ireland the people are hearing about police assisting in the murder of football fans on the eve of Euro 2016.

That will strike a chord and put another nail in the rotting coffin of what was the RUC's reputation.
 

Enigma Variations

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The British government and unionism are losing the fight to keep collusion secret. It is inevitable the truth will come out and tonight all across Britain and Ireland the people are hearing about police assisting in the murder of football fans on the eve of Euro 2016.

That will strike a chord and put another nail in the rotting coffin of what was the RUC's reputation.
"Randomly facilitating" is probably a better description of that, before some clown pulls you up demanding evidence. They knew about the arms and what they were for. They couldn't always predict the targets but they could obviously predict what foot most of them kicked with.
It always amuses me when people cite the award of the George Cross Medal to the RUC as some sort of final vindication of their behaviour during the Troubles. As if that argument would impress any nationalist btw, particularly when everybody knows how corruptly arbitrary the British honours system is. More particularly as it came from Tony Blair, in his "One for everybody in the audience" diplomacy to create a post-Troubles feel-good atmosphere. Having said that I don't for a minute believe that the RUC were all rotten to the core either. I'd guess that the majority were decent people who believed in what they did, and personally refrained from engaging in criminality. It was of course a political police force from the outset. That is inarguable.
Most unionists hate Blair far more than we do, but they still lap up his George Cross stunt, like the lapdogs they are, because they think that they can select the arbitrary little bones he threw in their direction in isolation and simultaneously complain that he was a charlatan not to be trusted. Yep, as Freud might have said, but didn't, the Irish defy psychoanalytic study.
 

longmarch

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If it could ever be possible to isolate the issue of collusion then we might all find some agreement.

Personally I think too many only want to prove how right they were - be that the security services were all corrupt or that it was only a few bad eggs.

As a Unionist I will always be grateful for those who wore a uniform and tried to uphold some kind of law and order. I fully understand why Nationalists don't feel like me. It's that old walk a mile in his shoes........

The fact that security agents appeared to give more priority to protecting informers than they did protecting innocent people needs answers. Let there be no doubt that my community suffered because of this as well. I state this not to level the field but to appeal to my own that we were deemed as dispensable as anyone else so we shouldn't fear the truth.

What was the greater good? How many lives saved by the sacrifice of others? It's a callous way of looking at it but could that ever be used as justification? My own opinion is that it might if you were never personally effected but to a relative of a victim - no chance at all and rightly so.
 

McSlaggart

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If it could ever be possible to isolate the issue of collusion then we might all find some agreement.

Personally I think too many only want to prove how right they were - be that the security services were all corrupt or that it was only a few bad eggs.

As a Unionist I will always be grateful for those who wore a uniform and tried to uphold some kind of law and order.
Do you think that the civil rights marches was illegal and should have been beaten of the street?
 

Jack O Neill

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Do you think that the civil rights marches was illegal and should have been beaten of the street?
don't ask . loyalist nazis would justify the use of machine guns in such situations , a primitive and deranged people of very limited intelligence
 

Barna

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The fact that there are only 13 posts on the subject of the brits running loyalist terror gangs, now admitted by the PSNI, shows the main agenda of most on here.
 

DavidCaldwell

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The fact that there are only 13 posts on the subject of the brits running loyalist terror gangs, now admitted by the PSNI, shows the main agenda of most on here.
Give us a day or so and there will be more comments.

My point of view is, broadly speaking, Unionist, but there is probably more that we agree on than you imagine, including the following
- the killings in Loughinisland and in the Dublin and Monaghan bombing were very wrong, were crimes;
- those responsible should face justice;
- that security forces and indeed the British and Irish governments are made up of people who, with a few exceptions, are not saints.

To me, one central principle in conflict like what happened here is that something is right only if everyone thinks it so. It is not enough for my side to think something is OK. Rather, we need to find other ways of doing things, find alternative paths that are acceptable (or at least not totally unacceptable) to all sides. That may be difficult, but with any luck we can find small steps that are acceptable and then move on from there.

I have mentioned some of my opinions that I think you will agree with. For completeness, I must mention some opinions that you may disagree with -
- the security forces as a whole did not co-operate or run the Loyalist paramilitaries; (evidence for would be the fact (if I remember correctly - I cannot find a reference at the moment) that a higher proportion of Loyalist killings were followed by successful prosecution and imprisonment);
- the Loyalist killings were crimes, collusion was a crime, Republican killings were crimes.
 

redneck

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I don't think there was organized collusion between Loyalist Death squads and the Police/RUC.
I think it was more individuals taking the iniatitive. Unfortunately there was not enough "whistleblowers" or a good enough justice system to stop this
Hopefully both the PSNI and the Garda will have learnt from this. What is needed now is for the Perpetrators on both sides to own up to their misdeeds- and to face the consequences.
 

Covenanter

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After todays Police Ombudsman's report on Loughinisland, and the suspicion over Greysteel collusion is no longer an unfounded allegation but a stated fact. However no one will be brought to account; we will never know how far up the chain of command this policy went, and it ends once and for all the argument that the British and their armed forces both military, police and intelligence services were holding the line. The fact is they were active, partial and willing participants in the conflict.
The problem is that the term collusion covers things which have absolutely nothing to do with what CNRs are accusing the police of. CNRs think that the police directed the UVF killers and covered up for them. The report does not in any way say that. However because the idiot Ombudsman has thrown the word collusion into the report they CNRs think they can throw those accusations out there as if they are facts.

In the Loughinisland case the term collusion is used to describe keeping an informer in place within the UVF unit which carried out the murders. Arresting him would have removed the ability to gain intelligence on future attacks and would have left the UVF free to carry out future attacks with impunity. The decision to keep the informer in place may have been wrong, but it was not collusion.
 

Belfastdan

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Give us a day or so and there will be more comments.

My point of view is, broadly speaking, Unionist, but there is probably more that we agree on than you imagine, including the following
- the killings in Loughinisland and in the Dublin and Monaghan bombing were very wrong, were crimes;
- those responsible should face justice;
- that security forces and indeed the British and Irish governments are made up of people who, with a few exceptions, are not saints.

To me, one central principle in conflict like what happened here is that something is right only if everyone thinks it so. It is not enough for my side to think something is OK. Rather, we need to find other ways of doing things, find alternative paths that are acceptable (or at least not totally unacceptable) to all sides. That may be difficult, but with any luck we can find small steps that are acceptable and then move on from there.

I have mentioned some of my opinions that I think you will agree with. For completeness, I must mention some opinions that you may disagree with -
- the security forces as a whole did not co-operate or run the Loyalist paramilitaries; (evidence for would be the fact (if I remember correctly - I cannot find a reference at the moment) that a higher proportion of Loyalist killings were followed by successful prosecution and imprisonment);
- the Loyalist killings were crimes, collusion was a crime, Republican killings were crimes.
I agree with you that many loyalists did get prosecuted and jailed but they were for the most part just the foot soldiers. Given that the UDA was able to operate openly as a legal organisation until the 1990s and that dual membership of the UDA, and the UDR in particular was well known, one has to wonder why this situation was allowed to exist. Now that the UDA is illegal how come its representatives are allowed to operate in plain view even to the extent that they are feted by both administrations on this island even getting invited to the Áras?

Finally how many of the planners , controllers, arms and intelligence suppliers as well as active participants from the security services have been brought to book for their actions?
 

eoghanacht

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Seeing how all the brits are probably drunk at this hour may I pre-empt their responses.

pages 1-10 will be strong denials of any collusion.

Pages 10-20 will be full of celebration of the murders followed by "ach, so what sher. it was only fenian tea eggs they were killing"
 

Covenanter

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I agree with you that many loyalists did get prosecuted and jailed but they were for the most part just the foot soldiers. Given that the UDA was able to operate openly as a legal organisation until the 1990s and that dual membership of the UDA, and the UDR in particular was well known, one has to wonder why this situation was allowed to exist. Now that the UDA is illegal how come its representatives are allowed to operate in plain view even to the extent that they are feted by both administrations on this island even getting invited to the Áras?

Finally how many of the planners , controllers, arms and intelligence suppliers as well as active participants from the security services have been brought to book for their actions?
Johnny Adair was the leader of the West Belfast UFF and he was arrested by the RUC and jailed for sixteen years. Just one example of many.
 


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